On Wednesday 19 March 2003 09:23 pm, Graham Burnett wrote:

Well I'm quite new to this mailing list, so forgive my ignorance, but it seems that alot goes on 'behind the scenes' of wikipedia here,

Behind the scenes? This is a publicly readable, unmoderated mailing list that is open to anybody with an email account. In addition, a link is on the Main Page says "Mailing lists" and you might have noticed the same link at the top of Recent Changes. Oh and on the "Mailing lists" page is a direct link to the archives where every single post that has ever been made resides - we hide nothing here.

Now how in the world is that behind the scenes? Saying this is "behind the scenes" is like saying the the general proceedings of the US Congress are behind the scenes just because you don't bother to watch CSPAN (yeah I know, not everybody who can vote has cable, but everybody who contributes to Wikipedia has access to an Internet connection so our proceeding are in fact /more/ open than Congress - that's not to say that we shouldn't become more open).

so again I'll repeat my question, what did Lir do that made them so utterly iredeemable (this is a genuine question, not rhetoric), and what is so wrong with Susan Mason's edits? I just did a random trawl through a selection of SM's contributions and they seem basically OK to me. She is alot more useful, constructive and coherent than Micheal who is a complete nuisance who has to be cleaned up after all the time (not that I want him banned either).

Lir is a troll - plain and simple. IMO Vera and Susan are just /really/ annoying but since it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Vera Cruz = Lir /and/ Vera acted in a similar way (albeit not as bad IMO) then that is why Vera was banned (We know Lir = Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] and that the email account Vera used was registered to a Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]). I'm not so sure about Susan's ban but if Susan = Lir then I guess the ban is valid (I don't have a strong opinion on that one way or the other).

If Zoe doesn't have the patience to explain what is obviously utter crystal clear to everybody else perhaps somebody else could spare a few seconds, thanks,

Graham (Quercus Robur)

The case for Lir is very clear, crystal you might say. I in fact was one of the people who advocated banning Lir. But I've been largely silent about Vera and Susan because as bad as they were/are they both are improvements over Lir's outrageous behavior (I do believe that Susan = Lir but I haven't seen undeniable evidence for this yet - but she does tend to stir-up more than her fair share of trouble).

Below are links to the archives with the relevant subject titles below the links - happy reading (you could have just as easily looked this up BTW - that is one reason why some people have been impatient with these types of questions):

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2002-November/subject.html 129.186.80.133 (aka Lir) lir collateral damage: Stop! In the name of love Lir and Wikipetiquette Lir needs to go RE: Lir needs to go My vacation, dealing with Lir Re: [Wikipedia-l] My vacation, dealing with Lir Re: This whole Lir and Americanization thing

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2002-November/subject.html Lir yet again Lir's demands Lir, yet again. O.k., let's ban Lir why am I banned? :<

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-January/subject.html vera cruz is a troll

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/subject.html "Susan Mason" Please let Lir back Please don't let Lir back The Lir situation User banned, why? User:Vera Cruz Vera Cruz is up to her old bad habits already

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-March/subject.html Problems with Susan Mason

And of course, Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is, Re. Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is and Susan Mason banned (was: User:RachelCorrie)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma The usual at [[March 16]]