I'm not convinced that in this case we're dealing with an Awbrey sock. Among other issues this one takes a more moderate stance than Awbrey has previously about the role of experts. Awbrey socks should of course be blocked on sight. ****** Here's the rub: I have no doubt that Awbrey would show intense interest in whatever evidence and logic JzG might provide in a public list such as this to convince you that he was dealing with an Awbrey sock.
I do not endorse the tone of some of JzG's comments (scold, scold - set the right example, dude).
I do sympathize with his frustration: quite a few people abuse the concept of AGF to assume bad faith on the part of those of us who do the hard work of deciphering these cases and acting upon them. Dan Tobias's posts, although civil, frequently cross that line.
Want a recent example? See the workshop of the recent Alkivar case. Even though the Committee reached a unanimous decision after seeing my evidence, some Wikipedians were all too ready to presume I had some sort of grudge against Alkivar. They didn't even inquire what interaction Alkivar and I had outside of events directly related to that case (virtually none) and what good faith motive I might have had for investigating the Alkivar-Burntsauce situation (I had been one of the leading investigators on JB196 and was following up on that). Never mind that I had also disclosed the greater part of that evidence to trusted Wikipedians outside the Committee, and not a single one objected to my findings either privately or publicly.
If you attempt to erect a standard whereby each of us sleuths must describe the full details of our work on the complicated cases in public to everyone's full satisfaction, then no one will be pleased. We are not going to do that in public - the information would be too valuable to the very people we work so hard to foil - and the question itself is profoundly discourteous. People who don't do this hard work, and who have no intention of doing this work, cannot expect those of us who do to treble our workload for your entertainment.
-Durova
Aye, you're right of course.
Fact is, I am getting just a little bit tired of the fact that some people give a very strong appearance of extending a greater assumption of good faith towards the likes of Bagley and Barber than they do towards those of us who work to protect the project form the pernicious influence of such people.
The ill-tempered tone of the Alkivar workshop makes this very clear.
I should of course assume good faith of others, even where they have a long history of assuming bad faith on my part.
Which does not change the fact that I do believe, and I am perfectly happy to stand up and be counted on this, that active participation on Wikipedia Review, as it is *right now*, is fundamentally incompatible with being a good Wikipedian.
And I believe that the whole Alkivar business proves this.
Nobody else has to agree with this, it's not a proposed policy, but it is a statement of how I feel about that site *right now* based on what its prominent members are doing *right now*.
Guy (JzG)
Quoting Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
I'm not convinced that in this case we're dealing with an Awbrey sock. Among other issues this one takes a more moderate stance than Awbrey has previously about the role of experts. Awbrey socks should of course be blocked on sight.
Here's the rub: I have no doubt that Awbrey would show intense interest in whatever evidence and logic JzG might provide in a public list such as this to convince you that he was dealing with an Awbrey sock.
Obviously true, and if he is convinced that this is another Awbrey sock, he's welcome to provide evidence for that by email. Furthermore, note that I didn't say that I didn't think this was an Awbrey sock, merely that I wasn't convinced.
I do not endorse the tone of some of JzG's comments (scold, scold - set the right example, dude).
I do sympathize with his frustration: quite a few people abuse the concept of AGF to assume bad faith on the part of those of us who do the hard work of deciphering these cases and acting upon them. Dan Tobias's posts, although civil, frequently cross that line.
Want a recent example? See the workshop of the recent Alkivar case. Even though the Committee reached a unanimous decision after seeing my evidence, some Wikipedians were all too ready to presume I had some sort of grudge against Alkivar. They didn't even inquire what interaction Alkivar and I had outside of events directly related to that case (virtually none) and what good faith motive I might have had for investigating the Alkivar-Burntsauce situation (I had been one of the leading investigators on JB196 and was following up on that). Never mind that I had also disclosed the greater part of that evidence to trusted Wikipedians outside the Committee, and not a single one objected to my findings either privately or publicly.
If you attempt to erect a standard whereby each of us sleuths must describe the full details of our work on the complicated cases in public to everyone's full satisfaction, then no one will be pleased. We are not going to do that in public - the information would be too valuable to the very people we work so hard to foil - and the question itself is profoundly discourteous. People who don't do this hard work, and who have no intention of doing this work, cannot expect those of us who do to treble our workload for your entertainment.
-Durova
No argument there. The notion that we would of forcing all ArbCom evidence to be public is very bad a many different levels. Transparency is a great ideal, but it needs to be balanced by pragmatic considerations.
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:56:08 -0500, joshua.zelinsky@yale.edu wrote:
Obviously true, and if he is convinced that this is another Awbrey sock, he's welcome to provide evidence for that by email. Furthermore, note that I didn't say that I didn't think this was an Awbrey sock, merely that I wasn't convinced.
Not even that; all I meant was that is looked* like Awbrey, who I know is still actively abusing sockpuppets because I just blocked yet another one.
Guy (JzG)