But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
I don't know about that.
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
I mean, it really takes a lot of... something... to create an encyclopedia page about yourself in the first place. And it takes a lot more of that to do it when it says right above the editing box that you shouldn't.
The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors "stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.
-- Jean is going to be bicycling 83 miles in the Pan Mass Challenge in August, raising money for cancer research. Her profile is at http:// www.pmc.org/mypmc/profiles.asp?Section=story&eGiftID=JS0417
On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith dpbsmith@verizon.net wrote:
But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
I don't know about that.
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has been listed! (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet before someone goes through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-)) My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting, but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how anyone can *not* stumble across it.
The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors "stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.
No doubt. But I suspect a lot of the newbies who *are* good-faith contributors don't make their newbiedom known...
(No comments from the peanut gallery about how I lost my innocence early, thank you!)
-Kat
I also stumbled across it pretty fast, and I put a page up for vfd a few days after I joined up...
On 8/1/05, Kat Walsh mindspillage@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith dpbsmith@verizon.net wrote:
But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
I don't know about that.
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has been listed! (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet before someone goes through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-)) My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting, but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how anyone can *not* stumble across it.
The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors "stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.
No doubt. But I suspect a lot of the newbies who *are* good-faith contributors don't make their newbiedom known...
(No comments from the peanut gallery about how I lost my innocence early, thank you!)
-Kat
-- http://www.mindspillage.net *** IM: LucidWaking "There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind." --Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 02/08/05, Kat Walsh mindspillage@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith dpbsmith@verizon.net wrote:
But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
I don't know about that.
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has been listed! (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet before someone goes through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-)) My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting, but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how anyone can *not* stumble across it.
I'd have to check when mine was, but I think I was using VfD (very, very ineptly, probably) within the first couple of weeks. I think I randomly found reference to deletion on a policy page somewhere, and then was playing with random-page...
Especially given the current size of VfD, it wouldn't really surprise me if it's even easier now.
Hi!
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:03:00 -0400, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it.
Even if they do, I suspect that they are more likely to stumble over the page of a single article, not the fast mess VfD as such is. And on single pages, VfD doesn't necessarily look that bad.
Those newbies that start digging themselfs into policy pages and formal ways of resolving problems are probably the kind of people who have seens lots of crap before they ever came to WP.
So I do suspect that the impact of VfD on Newbies is quite limited.
Alex
Any newbie who has created an article which doesnt quite fit may face VFD, which is (IIRC an old comparison) like going to a restaurant only to be introduced to the trash cans.
But I've since come to understand that just like everybody needs an asshole, every Wikipedia needs a VFD. The problem is when Montezuma's kicks in, and the wholesome nutrition is flushed out with the dross and detritus. WP needs some kind of anti-Montezuma's type remedy --which just has to work and doesnt have to be of a particular brand (or color). ATS, its great to see people expressing their distaste for the subject, and support the notion that WP needs a new "exit strategy" --or at least a better working one.
But it's worrisome that the grand mailing list ppl are rather incapable, disorganized, and without leadership to do anything about it --such that Ed's rage against the machine seems to be something symbolic of a greater frustration rel. process failures to enforce consensus, and how consensus is too weak to change systemic trends. On the one hand its validating: WP, even if it is more wiki than encyclopedia, isnt bad. On the other hand, its frustrating because things, ideally, could be so much more ideal.
-SV
Ray (Eclect) wrote: "that Ed's horoic effort" - Was this a clever mix of horror and heroic?
--- Alex Regh Alex.Here@gmx.net wrote:
Hi!
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:03:00 -0400, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it.
Even if they do, I suspect that they are more likely to stumble over the page of a single article, not the fast mess VfD as such is. And on single pages, VfD doesn't necessarily look that bad.
Those newbies that start digging themselfs into policy pages and formal ways of resolving problems are probably the kind of people who have seens lots of crap before they ever came to WP.
So I do suspect that the impact of VfD on Newbies is quite limited.
Alex
If you don't go over the top, you can't see what's on the other side. --- Jim Steinman ---
Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
I don't know about that.
I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
My first edit:
16:37, 21 September 2004 (hist) (diff) Roll-playing (Added D&D reference)
My first VFD edit, more than 100 edits later:
06:58, 27 October 2004 (hist) (diff) m Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Zuckermann ghil'ad (rv vandalism) (top)
My first VFD rampage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=A...
So it took me from September 21 (about the day I discovered Wikipedia) to November 16 (after 2 months of doing very little) to fully find and start voting at VFD.
But as you can see from the above, I first stumbled upon VFD a month after stumbling upon Wikipedia itself.
And evidently whilst RC patrolling no less :)
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