Alex R. wrote:
"All contributions submitted here are released under the [[GNU Free Documentation License]], see [[{Project name}:Copyrights and Warranty Disclaimers]] . By clicking save you affirm the copyright owner(s) of all submitted material agrees to these terms; you further affirm that such text is not defamatory or in violation of any law; you also agree to [[{project name}:indemnify|indemnify]] {project name}, all other volunteers and the [[Wikimedia Foundation]] for any and all claims connected with your submission and are bound by the [[{project name): terms and conditions]]."
That looks good to me. Any objections from anybody about me changing the edit page text in Language.php, moving/modifying [[Wikipedia:Copyrights]], creating [[Wikipedia:Terms and conditions]], and for Alex to start [[Wikipedia:Indemnify]]?
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
[[User:Kwantus]] is creating pages at a fast rate, most of them consisting of little more than data with no complete sentences. When I asked him if he could please write complete sentences, his reply (my first question on his talk page, his reply to it):
Re: John Jay McCloy. Any chance you can write complete sentences and correctly wikify what you include in the article? This article is currently really worthless. RickK 07:48, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC) Simple answer, no. I research, not write. Don't like it, then fix it, erase it, or ban me.
My second request was deleted off his talk page, but it was initially:
It's me again. Please write complete sentences, and include a first sentence which tells why a person deserves an article. Look at your Samuel P. Bush article, for example. Please give us a complete first sentence telling us who he was, and then make the rest of the article complete sentences. RickK 00:24, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
His response was to make this edit to [[Samuel P. Bush]]:
Samuel Prescott Bush, father of Sen. Prescott Bush, grandfather of George H. W. Bush, greatgrandfather George W. Bush, apparent root of the Bush family wealth. (RiK, you make it a sentence, i research, noit write. and you wouldn't like the way i write.)
RickK
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on 9/6/03 6:41 PM, Rick at giantsrick13@yahoo.com wrote:
[[User:Kwantus]] is creating pages at a fast rate, most of them consisting of little more than data with no complete sentences. When I asked him if he could please write complete sentences, his reply (my first question on his talk page, his reply to it):
Re: John Jay McCloy. Any chance you can write complete sentences and correctly wikify what you include in the article? This article is currently really worthless. RickK http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK 07:48, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Simple answer, no. I research, not write. Don't like it, then fix it, erase it, or ban me.
My second request was deleted off his talk page, but it was initially:
It's me again. Please write complete sentences, and include a first sentence which tells why a person deserves an article. Look at your Samuel P. Bush http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush article, for example. Please give us a complete first sentence telling us who he was, and then make the rest of the article complete sentences. RickK http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK 00:24, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
His response was to make this edit to [[Samuel P. Bush]]:
Samuel Prescott Bush, father of Sen. Prescott Bush http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush , grandfather of George H. W. Bush http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush , greatgrandfather George W. Bush http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush , apparent root of the Bush family wealth. (RiK, you make it a sentence, i research, noit write. and you wouldn't like the way i write.)
RickK
I suggest you quit hassling User Kwantus. His article seems to contain useful information which almost anyone could easily copyedit.
Fred
And what about the 20 other articles he wrote in the same vein? As much as I enjoy editing a page now and again, trying to tackle all of the stuff he wrote was a tad daunting.
Geez, it's turned into "Attack Rick" night.
RickK
Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
I suggest you quit hassling User Kwantus. His article seems to contain useful information which almost anyone could easily copyedit.
Fred _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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on 9/7/03 9:09 AM, Rick at giantsrick13@yahoo.com wrote:
And what about the 20 other articles he wrote in the same vein? As much as I enjoy editing a page now and again, trying to tackle all of the stuff he wrote was a tad daunting.
Geez, it's turned into "Attack Rick" night.
RickK
Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
I suggest you quit hassling User Kwantus. His article seems to contain useful information which almost anyone could easily copyedit.
Well, I was a bit short. I looked at Kwantus's efforts on that one article. If it is to be criticised it is on the basis that he's digging up dirt in the Bush family background rather than for incomplete sentences. Always a good rule to leave something undone anyway when you write an article. How about taking him on his word that he is a good researcher but not a good writer.
Fred
Fred Bauder wrote:
Always a good rule to leave something undone anyway when you write an article. How about taking him on his word that he is a good researcher but not a good writer.
Agreed. I don't think there is a problem here. On fr:, plenty of people don't have a french keyboard and so their work has to be corrected for accented characters. People have skills in different areas.
At 08:42 AM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On fr:, plenty of people don't have a french keyboard and so their work has to be corrected for accented characters.
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, , µ, ä, etc.
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Dante Alighieri wrote:
At 08:42 AM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On fr:, plenty of people don't have a french keyboard and so their work has to be corrected for accented characters.
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, €, µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98. Feel free to drop by the fr: and tell us how to do it though!
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, €, µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
At least US releases of Windows have had it for ages; I've used it on and off since Windows 3.1.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
At 07:43 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, Ã, , µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
At least US releases of Windows have had it for ages; I've used it on and off since Windows 3.1.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird capital A's in front of totally different characters....
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 20:05, Dante Alighieri wrote:
Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird capital A's in front of totally different characters....
The mail I sent was fine, but encoded in UTF-8. Your mailer (QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9) doesn't appear to handle this well.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Dante Alighieri wrote:
At 07:43 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French
ones)
with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the
US-International
keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, , µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird capital A's in front of totally different characters....
Maybe your machine is peforming obscene act on the characters. In the first messages I received them as question marks in black diamonds. They showed up correctly on Brion's message, but on your last message they were mostly showed up as Cyrillic two-letter combinations. Nevertheless they ended up correct again when I quoted the message above. Go figure!
Ec
At 10:02 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
At 07:43 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, Ã, , µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird capital A's in front of totally different characters....
Maybe your machine is peforming obscene act on the characters. In the first messages I received them as question marks in black diamonds. They showed up correctly on Brion's message, but on your last message they were mostly showed up as Cyrillic two-letter combinations. Nevertheless they ended up correct again when I quoted the message above. Go figure!
Ec
Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is acceptable. On a related note, allow me to voice my deep and abiding love for lack of standards... why have one useful and quality standard when we can have several confusing and un-interoperable formats...
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Dante Alighieri wrote:
Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is acceptable. On a related note, allow me to voice my deep and abiding love for lack of standards... why have one useful and quality standard when we can have several confusing and un-interoperable formats...
So, in what Inferno circle would you put the standardizers? :-)
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is acceptable. On a related note, allow me to voice my deep and abiding love for lack of standards... why have one useful and quality standard when we can have several confusing and un-interoperable formats...
So, in what Inferno circle would you put the standardizers? :-)
Ec
They all go to Circle Eight. Some -- those who deliberately and consistantly write standards favoring one company's implementations -- are punished with the Simoniacs in Bolgia Three. Most, however, wind up in Bolgia Nine. Whether they join the Sowers of Religious or Political Discord is left as an exercise for the Judge.
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 22:14, Dante Alighieri wrote:
Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is acceptable.
Since you're using an old version of Eudora, you might try the current version (6.0) and see if it's less broken.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
At 09:17 AM 9/8/2003, you wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 22:14, Dante Alighieri wrote:
Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is acceptable.
Since you're using an old version of Eudora, you might try the current version (6.0) and see if it's less broken.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must have JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
æ ligature aesch ¢ cent sign Euro sign ç French c with a tail thingy ñ tilde over an n ä umlaut over an a ð lowercase delta ß ess tsett
Let's see if that works...
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 12:06, Dante Alighieri wrote:
Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must have JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
æ ligature aesch ¢ cent sign Euro sign
That doesn't come out, as your mail was marked as ISO-8859-1, an encoding which doesn't include the Euro sign. See if you can get it to send mails in ISO-8859-15 or Windows-1252 (or better yet, UTF-8).
ç French c with a tail thingy ñ tilde over an n ä umlaut over an a ð lowercase delta ß ess tsett
Let's see if that works...
And my reply... :)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Somehow a complaint about a newbie and his newbie errors evolved into a 30 entry long discussion about various stuff ending in UTF-8 and encoding issues...
?
Back to my old friend 'the drink,' -s-
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At 12:30 PM 9/8/2003, you wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 12:06, Dante Alighieri wrote:
Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must
have
JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
æ ligature aesch ¢ cent sign Euro sign
That doesn't come out, as your mail was marked as ISO-8859-1, an encoding which doesn't include the Euro sign. See if you can get it to send mails in ISO-8859-15 or Windows-1252 (or better yet, UTF-8).
ç French c with a tail thingy ñ tilde over an n ä umlaut over an a ð lowercase delta à ess tsett
Let's see if that works...
And my reply... :)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
*sigh* OK, this doesn't seem to be working. I received the above.... the weird thing is, when I send OUT the message, the messages are fine, I just can't receive the characters. I even checked my OUT box and the message displays fine... stupid Eudora!!!
I can't seem to find a way to change my encoding... anyone know how?
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Everything except the euro sign came out fine. However, in your reply to Brion, they went back to the A-stuff.
--Jake
--- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must have JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
� ligature aesch � cent sign � Euro sign � French c with a tail thingy � tilde over an n � umlaut over an a � lowercase delta � ess tsett
Let's see if that works...
Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Well, that looked OK when I recieved it, but it other replies to it, it didn't work. I wonder how it'll work when I send it.
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On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:05:58 -0700, Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com gave utterance to the following:
At 07:43 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French
ones)
with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the
US-International
keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, €, µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
At least US releases of Windows have had it for ages; I've used it on and off since Windows 3.1.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird capital A's in front of totally different characters....
Tarquin's reply was sent with an inadequate charset to display the content of the message: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
This is rather surprising given the mail client (Thunderbird): User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624
Richard Grevers wrote:
Tarquin's reply was sent with an inadequate charset to display the content of the message: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
This is rather surprising given the mail client (Thunderbird): User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624
I'm still stuck working out how to stop mozilla mail from pasting formatted text into my "compose email" box. It makes referring to the title of a wikipedia article a real pain :(
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 09:52, tarquin wrote:
I'm still stuck working out how to stop mozilla mail from pasting formatted text into my "compose email" box. It makes referring to the title of a wikipedia article a real pain :(
Using Windows? Paste the text into notepad, which only handles plaintext. Then highlight and copy it and paste it into the email.
--- cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 09:52, tarquin wrote:
I'm still stuck working out how to stop mozilla
mail from pasting
formatted text into my "compose email" box. It
makes referring to the
title of a wikipedia article a real pain :(
Using Windows? Paste the text into notepad, which only handles plaintext. Then highlight and copy it and paste it into the email.
Or Vim for Linux and SimpleText for mac.
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On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 09:52, tarquin wrote:
I'm still stuck working out how to stop mozilla mail from pasting formatted text into my "compose email" box. It makes referring to the title of a wikipedia article a real pain :(
Using Windows? Paste the text into notepad, which only handles plaintext. Then highlight and copy it and paste it into the email.
Just to note, in my case, those accented characters showed up as the <A-with a tilde><odd symbol> form for me in any post from Dante, and Richard Grevers' reply that quoted tarquin's quote thereof... yet it showed fine in all others (including tarquin's). (I use OE 6, with security set to maximum and 'Read all messages as plain text' set.)
--Jake
Brion Vibber wrote:
On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
Dante Alighieri wrote:
It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French ones) with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the US-International keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters as: ç, ó, æ, ß, €, µ, ä, etc.
Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
At least US releases of Windows have had it for ages; I've used it on and off since Windows 3.1.
I've never had any problem with these. Thus for é I simply use Alt+0233 (with leading zero and numbers from the numerical pad. That covers all West European languages.
Ec
Geez, it's turned into "Attack Rick" night.
I dont want to make you feel singled out Rick - youre a fine editor and not too unreasonable. -- Your just maybe a little thin-skinned when it comes to dealing with some of the perennial problems here -- primarily newbieism and how to deal with it.
I took issue last night for your "revert war" with Zero0000 on Hezbollah for a couple reasons -- first -- you were reverting the work of a bona fide user without so much as a comment beyond "rv" -- this doesnt work here. This is fine for dealing with an anon who vandalizes pages with "bush is a whacker" or whatever. Second you were doing so for apparently subjecive reasons -- based on your judgement of the quality of their work . In such cases, leave a comment, take a neutral position, and generate a dialogue. (there was only one comment by Zero and it was entirely with merit and thoughtfulness. Your conduct, simply by trying to quietly sweep someone (too polite in fact to argue with you) under the rug is reprehensible, if not a cause for some sanction. (Why are sanctions not in degrees, anyway)
Im not sure, but I think you *may, (like a great many productive wikipedian) have contracted the academic standards kick disease http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_standards_kick or perhaps a variant. Either way, a central diagnosis of that disease is to treat newbies and people who are not vandals as vandals. Read article for cures.
-S-
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Why don't we create a [[Wikipedia:Pages to be wikified]]?
It's the wrong attitude to dump the work of wikifying to other people. Let's put all the unwikified pages on one page and if it stays too long...delete.
Jiang
Rick giantsrick13@yahoo.com wrote:
And what about the 20 other articles he wrote in the same vein? As much as I enjoy editing a page now and again, trying to tackle all of the stuff he wrote was a tad daunting.
Geez, it's turned into "Attack Rick" night.
RickK
Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
I suggest you quit hassling User Kwantus. His article seems to contain useful information which almost anyone could easily copyedit.
Fred _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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At 01:18 PM 9/7/03 -0700, Jiang suggested:
Why don't we create a [[Wikipedia:Pages to be wikified]]?
It's the wrong attitude to dump the work of wikifying to other people. Let's put all the unwikified pages on one page and if it stays too long...delete.
I do wikification and copyediting as a single process, either when I'm in that kind of mood, or when I'm checking out new pages. But I can easily see someone choosing to do only one or the other.
The tricky part, of course, is that it's a lot easier to agree on things like the value of actual sentences than on how much wikification is needed.
Daniel Mayer wrote:
Alex R. wrote:
"All contributions submitted here are released under the [[GNU Free Documentation License]], see [[{Project name}:Copyrights and Warranty Disclaimers]] . By clicking save you affirm the copyright owner(s) of all submitted material agrees to these terms; you further affirm that such text is not defamatory or in violation of any law; you also agree to [[{project name}:indemnify|indemnify]] {project name}, all other volunteers and the [[Wikimedia Foundation]] for any and all claims connected with your submission and are bound by the [[{project name): terms and conditions]]."
That looks good to me. Any objections from anybody about me changing the edit page text in Language.php, moving/modifying [[Wikipedia:Copyrights]], creating [[Wikipedia:Terms and conditions]], and for Alex to start [[Wikipedia:Indemnify]]?
Whatever!!
I'm sure that it will receive the same dilligent attention and understanding that we all apply when a software package asks us to "Click here if you understand and agree to our licensing terms" :-P
Ec
From: "Ray Saintonge" saintonge@telus.net
Whatever!!
I'm sure that it will receive the same dilligent attention and understanding that we all apply when a software package asks us to "Click here if you understand and agree to our licensing terms" :-P
Ec
If you want to see an annotated version of the proposed click text I've tried to explain it a bit here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alex756/Annotated_edit_page_announcement There are a few minor changes from the one posted on the lists. In terms of making it a little shorter the indemnification stuff could be put on the terms and conditions page; I'd rather some mention of indemnification be on the edit page so someone can't say, "I didn't read the terms and conditions. I don't know what they say." From reading the archives there is a general (and understandable aversion) to legal boilerplate, but some changes do appear necessary to get people to think more about copyright, defamation and potential legal responsibility.
Can we wait a few days (or a week) to see if there are any objections or further suggestions? I've located a few other lawyers on Wikipedia and am going to ask them to take a look at it and see if they have any suggestions.
Alex756
From: "Alex R." alex756@nyc.rr.com
We haven't been discussing this since Sept. 7, there have been some suggestions and I've tried to put them together into the Versions 2.0 update: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alex756/Annotated_edit_page_announcement along with two associated pages: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alex756/Wikipedia:Copyrights_and_Warranty... and http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alex756/Wikipedia:Submission_Standards Any further comments, criticisms, objections, requests to abandon this undertaking, etc., would be appreciated.
Several users suggested that there should be some kind of click link or links as there is on the upload file page to make sure someone is affirming copyright status. I am not adverse to such a modification myself (if it does not create too many coding difficulties).
Alex756
There is the dual issue of the notice to /users/ of our material: [[en:Wikipedia talk:Sites that use Wikipedia for content#Suggested notice]]. The basic idea is that maybe so many sites are violating the GNU FDL (and usually, it seems, unknowingly and without any evil intent) because the brief text at the bottom of each page is unclear.
The text currently reads:
<small>All text is available under the terms of the [[GNU FDL|GNU Free Documentation License]].<small>
Note that [[en:GNU FDL]] redirects to [[en:Wikipedia:Copyrights]] (!). Between clarity, conciseness, and links that make sense, the current version has been edited and ended up as:
<small>All text is available under the terms of the [[Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License| GNU Free Documentation License]]. See [[Wikipedia:Copyrights]] for suggested practices.</small>
I await confirmation from MB that my reversion of his last change is OK; otherwise, the above seems to be agreed upon by the participants.
So first, we link directly to the text of the GNU FDL. Next, links go where they naively appear to go. Also, this frees [[en:GNU FDL]] to redirect where it should, which is [[en:GNU Free Documentation License]]. Finally, we point out that there are "suggested practices", so that people see a reason to look at [[en:Wikpedia:Copyrights]] even if they're already familiar with the GNU FDL. (For example, the GNU FDL doesn't require a link back to us, since the requirement to provide authorship credits can be done without that. But we'd really prefer it!)
-- Toby