Wikipedia actually forces me to take an indefinite break until the whole thing is running properly again. A couple of days ago, I wikified a long page and for once forgot to copy it before pressing the "save" button. Needless to say, the whole thing was lost irrevocably before I had realized my mistake. Yesterday I was careless again and added five titles to Kingturtle's reading list -- lost forever. Now I just wanted to update a page -- impossible.
I'm still amazed that this is not being discussed. Instead, I am inundated by e-mails about bots, most of which are just copies of old e-mails with one sentence added at the bottom. I don't understand participants' priorities here.
I have been used to having a look at Wikipedia first thing whenever I sit down at my computer. I guess I'll keep doing so and occasionally try to edit an article, but since all good features (watchlist, search function etc.) are more or less gone and as it now usually takes one minute or so to get from the edit history back to the article I don't think I'll be able to contribute a lot. This is just too frustrating.
Whatever happened to the "new server madness"?
KF
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 07:41, K Forstner wrote:
Wikipedia actually forces me to take an indefinite break until the whole thing is running properly again. A couple of days ago, I wikified a long page and for once forgot to copy it before pressing the "save" button. Needless to say, the whole thing was lost irrevocably before I had realized my mistake. Yesterday I was careless again and added five titles to Kingturtle's reading list -- lost forever. Now I just wanted to update a page -- impossible.
I'm still amazed that this is not being discussed.
You're obviously not reading the same barrels and barrels of complaints I am. :)
There's been some more concrete discussion on wikitech-l, the developers' list. If you can give actual useful advice based on experience running high-load web servers, then please do.
We *know* it's slow. Everyone here knows it's slow, and posting about the fact that it's slow is not going to shock us into flipping the magic "don't be slow" switch, because there just isn't such a switch.
Hardware upgrades (new processors, _much_ faster for the web server, and more memory which can be devoted to caching data to avoid hitting the db/disk so much) have been ordered and should be installed next week.
If you have real, useful ideas on improving the efficiency of our setup, or better yet can code up improvements and submit patches to the software, then *please please please* join wikitech-l and get a-postin'. For those that just want to bitch about how slow the server is, may I direct you to our IRC channel: #wikipedia on irc.freenode.net. ;)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
--- K Forstner kurt.forstner@chello.at wrote:
Wikipedia actually forces me to take an indefinite break until the whole thing is running properly again. A couple of days ago, I wikified a long page and for once forgot to copy it before pressing the "save" button. Needless to say, the whole thing was lost irrevocably before I had realized my mistake. Yesterday I was careless again and added five titles to Kingturtle's reading list -- lost forever. Now I just wanted to update a page -- impossible.
I'm still amazed that this is not being discussed. Instead, I am inundated by e-mails about bots, most of which are just copies of old e-mails with one sentence added at the bottom. I don't understand participants' priorities here.
The issue of the bots has been resolved, I think. Steve seems to have stopped arguing, so I think it's OK to go ahead with the bot.
I have been used to having a look at Wikipedia first thing whenever I sit down at my computer. I guess I'll keep doing so and occasionally try to edit an article, but since all good features (watchlist, search function etc.) are more or less gone and as it now usually takes one minute or so to get from the edit history back to the article I don't think I'll be able to contribute a lot. This is just too frustrating.
Whatever happened to the "new server madness"?
KF
Funny, I haven't been experiencing any of those problems. LDan
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--- Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com wrote:
The issue of the bots has been resolved, I think. Steve seems to have stopped arguing, so I think it's OK to go ahead with the bot.
"Stopped arguing" -- Nobody bothered to answer the last email or to really deal with the issue of POV. Is this how consensus works, eh?
~S~
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On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 15:19, Steve Vertigum wrote:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com wrote:
The issue of the bots has been resolved, I think. Steve seems to have stopped arguing, so I think it's OK to go ahead with the bot.
"Stopped arguing" -- Nobody bothered to answer the last email or to really deal with the issue of POV. Is this how consensus works, eh?
What's to deal with? The source of the information is labeled; if there's not something more useful at hand, that's good enough for now.
As you _may_ recall, Wikipedia works by an iterative process: articles created now can be improved later.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
--- Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
What's to deal with? The source of the information is labeled; if there's not something more useful at hand, that's good enough for now.
As you _may_ recall, Wikipedia works by an iterative process: articles created now can be improved later.
The problem is the implied validation of likely POV material by Wikipedia should it allow it to be uploaded *en masse. I have no problem with it being added *by hand. I for one dont want to see Wikipedia favoritism going toward taking sides in an ethnic dispute-- with POV numbers disguised as "statistics." Im sure there are other who agree with me, despite their silence.
Theres also the issue that these number according to their source are under "Moral copyright" -- something that perhaps Alex (not just the non-lawyers) should comment on.
Respectfully to all, ~S~
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Sheldon, if youre there,
Ive looked at some of the material on Disinfopedia, and think most of it too valuable to leave to it alone. I would encourage at some point an integration of those date to Wikipedia-- as much of it is encyclopedic.
The only failing of Disinfo that I can see so far (besides the fact that "Disinfo" doesnt bring up DisP on a Google search) is its disconnection from Wikipedia, and the division of energy that it represents.
Not to mention NPOV -- that the occasional crass comment actually hurts the legitimacy of the DisP as a source.
please see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_California_recall#The_premise_for_the_rec...
for an example of how Disinfopedia energy would be better served on Wikipedia. Until I made this change, little was present in the article about the Energy crisis.
Respectforking yours, ~S~
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On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 15:44, Steve Vertigum wrote:
--- Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
What's to deal with? The source of the information is labeled; if there's not something more useful at hand, that's good enough for now.
As you _may_ recall, Wikipedia works by an iterative process: articles created now can be improved later.
The problem is the implied validation of likely POV material by Wikipedia should it allow it to be uploaded *en masse. I have no problem with it being added *by hand.
Have you anything better that can be uploaded en masse?
The bot's being set up now. It's only a few hundred pages, which is peanuts to a project this size. They can be improved individually or en masse if there's anything more than empty talk.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
--- Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Have you anything better that can be uploaded en masse?
The bot's being set up now. It's only a few hundred pages, which is peanuts to a project this size. They can be improved individually or en masse if there's anything more than empty talk.
I understand. How many is a "few hundred"?
~S~
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--- Steve Vertigum utilitymuffinresearch2@yahoo.com wrote: And can we consult a solicitor on the copyright issue?
The central objection is to include "statistical" data on Israel, while there is not some similar data dealing with "occupied territories" for refugees. To add data about Israel irrespective of any date about refugees would be to prejudice the argument-- it is yet another small victory for those who want to "legitimize" by propagation of information (like MLP) the Israeli side of the equasion-- this time on Wikipedia. Go ahead and add it-- I still havent heard anybody challenge my principles here. Once again, this would represent a way to establish legitimacy for a state which has violated more international sanctions than any other, has legalized torture, and still asks people to regard its behaviours as sacrosact and saintly. There is every good reason to postpone any action on this -- the project has gone along fine for years without them. Until some of the more fluid concerns are dealt with -- siezed lands, illegitimate territories, etc. I find it disappointing that people her fail to have the cajones to adhere to basic principle. They are just numbers after all.
With due respect, ~S~
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Then you haven't been paying attention, have you? Or are you just ignoring all of those letters which object to your objections?
RickK
Steve Vertigum utilitymuffinresearch2@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Steve Vertigum wrote: I still havent heard anybody challenge my principles here. -l
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On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steve Vertigum wrote:
The central objection is to include "statistical" data on Israel, while there is not some similar data dealing with "occupied territories" for refugees. To add data about Israel irrespective of any date about refugees would be to prejudice the argument-- it is yet another small victory for those who want to "legitimize" by propagation of information (like MLP) the Israeli side of the equasion-- this time on Wikipedia. Go ahead and add it-- I still havent heard anybody challenge my principles here.
You haven't heard anyone dispute this because it's irrelevant to the matter. You are arguing POV, which belongs to the appropriate Talk: page, or to the meta page that LDan created over on meta.
Steve, take the matter to the appropriate place.
Geoff
--- Geoff Burling llywrch@agora.rdrop.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steve Vertigum wrote:
The central objection is to include "statistical"
data
on Israel, while there is not some similar data dealing with "occupied territories" for refugees.
To
add data about Israel irrespective of any date
about
refugees would be to prejudice the argument-- it
is
yet another small victory for those who want to "legitimize" by propagation of information (like
MLP)
the Israeli side of the equasion-- this time on Wikipedia. Go ahead and add it-- I still havent
heard
anybody challenge my principles here.
You haven't heard anyone dispute this because it's irrelevant to the matter. You are arguing POV, which belongs to the appropriate Talk: page, or to the meta page that LDan created over on meta.
Steve, take the matter to the appropriate place.
Geoff
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--- Steve Vertigum utilitymuffinresearch2@yahoo.com wrote: And can we consult a solicitor on the copyright issue?
The central objection is to include "statistical" data on Israel, while there is not some similar data dealing with "occupied territories" for refugees. To add data about Israel irrespective of any date about refugees would be to prejudice the argument-- it is yet another small victory for those who want to "legitimize" by propagation of information (like MLP) the Israeli side of the equasion-- this time on Wikipedia. Go ahead and add it-- I still havent heard anybody challenge my principles here. Once again, this would represent a way to establish legitimacy for a state which has violated more international sanctions than any other, has legalized torture, and still asks people to regard its behaviours as sacrosact and saintly. There is every good reason to postpone any action on this -- the project has gone along fine for years without them. Until some of the more fluid concerns are dealt with -- siezed lands, illegitimate territories, etc. I find it disappointing that people her fail to have the cajones to adhere to basic principle. They are just numbers after all.
With due respect, ~S~
The US doesn't have data on illegal immigrants, yet we still allow its data to be on 30,000 pages. Should we say that since the US doesn't have data on illegal immigrants, by using their data, we are allowing their argument of saying that illegal immigrants shouldn't be counted is good? Of course not. And if you dispute that, it has already been decided by precident and changing that decision would require the deletion of thousands of pages with the creation of a new bot that's potentially destructive. LDan
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--- Steve Vertigum utilitymuffinresearch2@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Have you anything better that can be uploaded en masse?
The bot's being set up now. It's only a few
hundred
pages, which is peanuts to a project this size. They can be
improved
individually or en masse if there's anything more than empty talk.
I understand. How many is a "few hundred"?
~S~
<1000, at most. Probably <500. Israel isn't that big, remember. They can always be edited by bot, anyway. LDan
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Steve Vertigum wrote:
--- Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Have you anything better that can be uploaded en masse?
The bot's being set up now. It's only a few hundred pages, which is peanuts to a project this size. They can be improved individually or en masse if there's anything more than empty talk.
I understand. How many is a "few hundred"?
69 municipalities, 141 local councils, and 53 regional councils, for a total of 263 articles. The local councils and regional councils contain smaller towns within them, but I don't have data on them, so at present any information about them will have to be added manually.
-- Adam Raizen
--- Adam Raizen araizen@newmail.net wrote:
69 municipalities, 141 local councils, and 53 regional councils, for a total of 263 articles. The local councils and regional councils contain smaller towns within them, but I don't have data on them, so at present any information about them will have to be added manually.
I see-- and what treatment are you giving to towns which exist in violation of the various UN and US-Israel agreements over the years?
Its only been the past couple months that Israel has bent to international pressure to dismantle a settlement -- how are you treating these? Are these registered as non-existent? Are you adding the former Arabic names of towns, recently and not-so recently incorporated into Israel?
~S~
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On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 11:04, Steve Vertigum wrote:
I see-- and what treatment are you giving to towns which exist in violation of the various UN and US-Israel agreements over the years?
I've no idea whether they're in Adam's data or not, but if they _exist_, they _exist_ and this fact should be noted.
Its only been the past couple months that Israel has bent to international pressure to dismantle a settlement -- how are you treating these? Are these registered as non-existent? Are you adding the former Arabic names of towns, recently and not-so recently incorporated into Israel?
Steve, do you *HAVE THIS DATA*?
If you *HAVE IT*, you can add it.
If you don't have it, please see about finding it, because we'd all love to have it in the 'pedia, but you seem to be the most interested. That gives you the responsibility for satisfying your own interests and getting the data.
Write to the UN. Write to the Palestinian Authority. Write to whatever watchdog, peace, justice, and relief organizations you think might have information, and *get it* and *add it*. BE BOLD IN UPDATING PAGES!
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Steve Vertigum wrote:
69 municipalities, 141 local councils, and 53 regional councils, for a total of 263 articles. The local councils and regional councils contain smaller towns within them, but I don't have data on them, so at present any information about them will have to be added manually.
I see-- and what treatment are you giving to towns which exist in violation of the various UN and US-Israel agreements over the years?
Its only been the past couple months that Israel has bent to international pressure to dismantle a settlement -- how are you treating these? Are these registered as non-existent? Are you adding the former Arabic names of towns, recently and not-so recently incorporated into Israel?
First of all, he's already mentioned that data on the territories (West Bank, Gaza Strip) is not included, which is where most of these issues would arise. The remaining disputed areas are the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem; in both cases the issues could be solved simply by linking to those two articles, which explain the disputed situation.
As for former names, I'd say add them if you have them; if not, they can be added later. Most of the cities and towns in Turkey have former Greek names (as well as many former Greek residents, who have since been made into refugees), and I don't see anyone objecting that we're including data biased towards the occupying Turkish government in Wikipedia. (In fact, I think there are lots of Greece/Turkey and Palestine/Israel parallels, but that's another matter).
-Mark
Delirium wrote:
Steve Vertigum wrote:
69 municipalities, 141 local councils, and 53 regional councils, for a total of 263 articles. The local councils and regional councils contain smaller towns within them, but I don't have data on them, so at present any information about them will have to be added manually.
I see-- and what treatment are you giving to towns which exist in violation of the various UN and US-Israel agreements over the years? Its only been the past couple months that Israel has bent to international pressure to dismantle a settlement -- how are you treating these? Are these registered as non-existent? Are you adding the former Arabic names of towns, recently and not-so recently incorporated into Israel?
First of all, he's already mentioned that data on the territories (West Bank, Gaza Strip) is not included, which is where most of these issues would arise. The remaining disputed areas are the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem; in both cases the issues could be solved simply by linking to those two articles, which explain the disputed situation.
Just to clarify, and to give Steve more ammunition to attack the data :-), there's no data on *Palestinians* in the territories, but there is data on Israeli settlements. (That is, it's data on citizens of Israel, so it includes data on Druze in the Golan and Arabs in East Jerusalem.) For the settlements in the territories, the fact that they're in the territories is noted in the article.
If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it.
-- Adam Raizen
--- Adam Raizen araizen@newmail.net wrote:
Just to clarify, and to give Steve more ammunition to attack the data :-), there's no data on *Palestinians* in the territories, but there is data on Israeli settlements. (That is, it's data on citizens of Israel, so it includes data on Druze in the Golan and Arabs in East Jerusalem.) For the settlements in the territories, the fact that they're in the territories is noted in the article.
If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it.
-- Adam Raizen
Before Steve gets into his screaming rants, I think we should come up with constructive solutions. Maybe you should add a notice on all of the pages that they only refer to citizens of Israel. LDan
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I disagree. That should be on one page that is linked to from each of the pages, which Adam is already doing.
RickK
Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com wrote: --- Adam Raizen wrote:
Just to clarify, and to give Steve more ammunition to attack the data :-), there's no data on *Palestinians* in the territories, but there is data on Israeli settlements. (That is, it's data on citizens of Israel, so it includes data on Druze in the Golan and Arabs in East Jerusalem.) For the settlements in the territories, the fact that they're in the territories is noted in the article.
If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it.
-- Adam Raizen
Before Steve gets into his screaming rants, I think we should come up with constructive solutions. Maybe you should add a notice on all of the pages that they only refer to citizens of Israel. LDan
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Just wanted to say that Steve is a jerk and I support your efforts to make the Wikipedia as complete as possible, given the data available to us. :-)
--- Adam Raizen araizen@newmail.net wrote:
If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it.
Well that certainly says it all. :|
Brion's point is well taken -- cprompt's is not.
Im glad to hear that the number of articles is rather small -- only a few hundred -- meaning that what takes Adam one fell swoop will take me only a couple years to edit, etc. :) In all honesty I cant fault the use of these stats as a starting point-- just nobody get in my way when I edit them -- with the claim that these numbers are more legitimate or official.
I look forward to it-- its of course easier to bulldoze over things than it is to build them.
Seriously, I appreciate the honest and attemtps to answer the unanswerable--(Be glad you have someone to represent an opposing view) Ga'bless you all -- except you C'prompt, you jerk.
-S-
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Well that certainly says it all. :|
Brion's point is well taken -- cprompt's is not.
Im glad to hear that the number of articles is rather small -- only a few hundred -- meaning that what takes Adam one fell swoop will take me only a couple years to edit, etc. :) In all honesty I cant fault the use of these stats as a starting point-- just nobody get in my way when I edit them -- with the claim that these numbers are more legitimate or official.
I look forward to it-- its of course easier to bulldoze over things than it is to build them.
Seriously, I appreciate the honest and attemtps to answer the unanswerable--(Be glad you have someone to represent an opposing view) Ga'bless you all -- except you C'prompt, you jerk.
-S-
So, you're going to find some other source of statistics and replace the statistics that are currently there? Every source is contravercial and someone opposes it.
If you manage to find UN statistics that don't have less data, then I wouldn't object, but I just think that such statistics don't exist. I don't see what's the problem with the Israeli statistics. You *still* haven't even presented a motive for Israel to do something wrong with the statistics, letalone proof. LDan
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On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 23:00, Steve Vertigum wrote:
--- Adam Raizen araizen@newmail.net wrote:
If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it.
Well that certainly says it all. :|
Brion's point is well taken -- cprompt's is not.
Im glad to hear that the number of articles is rather small -- only a few hundred -- meaning that what takes Adam one fell swoop will take me only a couple years to edit, etc. :) In all honesty I cant fault the use of these stats as a starting point-- just nobody get in my way when I edit them -- with the claim that these numbers are more legitimate or official.
I look forward to it-- its of course easier to bulldoze over things than it is to build them.
Seriously, I appreciate the honest and attemtps to answer the unanswerable--(Be glad you have someone to represent an opposing view) Ga'bless you all -- except you C'prompt, you jerk.
-S-
The color of my face is best described as crimson.
I meant that off-list to Adam, and the word jerk was intended lightheartedly. I tried to reply to my own posting to explain that, after I realized I had addressed the list..only that time, the reply WAS offlist, and shortly after I received a reply.
I apologize for being offensive and insulting, even if (and especially if) it was targetted at someone who was not intended to hear it. Here's the original message I meant to send.
From: cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org Reply-To: cprompt@tmbg.org To: cprompt@tmbg.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Break Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:53:48 +0000
On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 18:49, cprompt wrote:
Just wanted to say that Steve is a jerk and I support your efforts to make the Wikipedia as complete as possible, given the data available
to
us. :-)
hehe..that was meant to be offlist to Adam. Before I get lashed (as I should be), I knew that I shouldn' tbe using the word jerk. A better phrase would be "playing devil's advocate", which is more at what Steve seemed to be doing, with the what-if scenarios and arguing for NPOV, even if others didn't deem it to be NPOV. I felt that Adam would interpret it as light-hearted as I meant it, but I don't think that others on the list would feel that way.
Attached is a JPG of how red my face is! :-) (#FF0000, i think)
--- cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org wrote:
hehe..that was meant to be offlist to Adam. Before I get lashed (as I should be), I knew that I shouldn' tbe using the word jerk. A better phrase would be "playing devil's advocate", which is more at what Steve seemed to be doing, with the what-if scenarios and arguing for NPOV, even if others didn't deem it to be NPOV. I felt that Adam would interpret it as light-hearted as I meant it, but I don't think that others on the list would feel that way.
Attached is a JPG of how red my face is! :-) (#FF0000, i think)
I don't think he's playing devil's advocate. I'm discussing Israel offlist with him and he seems to really hate it genuinely. (He's not anti-semetic, though) LDan
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-- cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org wrote:
I meant that off-list to Adam, and the word jerk was intended lightheartedly. I tried to reply to my own posting to explain that, after I realized I had addressed the list..only that time, the reply WAS offlist, and shortly after I received a reply.
I apologize for being offensive and insulting, even if (and especially if) it was targetted at someone who was not intended to hear it.
Fair enough. ~S~
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I see-- and what treatment are you giving to towns which exist in violation of the various UN and US-Israel agreements over the years?
Its only been the past couple months that Israel has bent to international pressure to dismantle a settlement -- how are you treating these? Are these registered as non-existent? Are you adding the former Arabic names of towns, recently and not-so recently incorporated into Israel?
~S~
Seeing as those towns, which you say shouldn't be there, exist, I think they should have articles. And I don't think that a lack of certain information can be enough to say that other information can't be uploaded. LDan
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The problem is the implied validation of likely POV material by Wikipedia should it allow it to be uploaded *en masse. I have no problem with it being added *by hand. ~S~
What if someone made a computer program to assemble the pages, then manually uploaded them. What if they were really fast at looking up data and typing? Where do you draw the line? What's the difference? LDan
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