In a message dated 3/6/2007 4:19:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, andrew.cady@gmail.com writes:
Plato's Republic was not essentially dissimilar to Soviet Communism; the main difference is that the Soviets at least payed lip service to democracy and the value of the working class. Russell on Plato:
It has always been correct to praise Plato, but not to understand him. This is the common fate of great men. My object is the opposite. I wish to understand him, but to treat him with as little reverence as if he were a contemporary English or American advocate of totalitarianism. [...]
But even if we suppose there is such a thing [in government] as "wisdom," is there any form of constitution which will give the government to the wise? It is clear that majorities, like general councils, may err, and in fact have erred. Aristocracies are not always wise; kings are often foolish; Popes, in spite of infallibility, have committed grievous errors. [...]
The problem of finding a collection of "wise" men and leaving the government to them is thus an insoluble one. That is the ultimate reason for democracy.
It's been a while since I read a good portion of Plato's book, _The Republic_, but I wouldn't say it ruled out democracy, only the problems with democracy, notably the lack of protection of minority factions including of the individual. Democracy and freedom are basically synonymous. However, I may mix classical and modern-political thought.
Please remember that (if we are to believe the dialogue) Socrates could have fled, but chose to drink the hemlock out of respect for the authority of Athenian government. Even where the state murders to censor critics, its dictates are not to be resisted. That is the mentality of Plato.
I won't touch on whether Athens was "true democracy."
Well, it was much more democratic than any institution today, a rule of 10 by 1.
I agree that Plato's republic was radical. Basically you wouldn't even have people raising their own children, and the children of those who were believed inferior would be quietly killed.
By that time, the world had experienced and was experiencing a republic, that of Rome, but I believe I've hit a wall.
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On Saturday 10 March 2007 20:28, Bartning@aol.com wrote:
It's been a while since I read a good portion of Plato's book, _The Republic_, but I wouldn't say it ruled out democracy, only the problems with democracy, notably the lack of protection of minority factions including of the individual. Democracy and freedom are basically synonymous. However, I may mix classical and modern-political thought.
Please remember that (if we are to believe the dialogue) Socrates could have fled, but chose to drink the hemlock out of respect for the authority of Athenian government. Even where the state murders to censor critics, its dictates are not to be resisted. That is the mentality of Plato.
Really, Volume 1 of Popper's "The Open Society and its Enemies" is a must-read.
On Saturday 10 March 2007 20:28, Bartning@aol.com wrote:
It's been a while since I read a good portion of Plato's book, _The Republic_, but I wouldn't say it ruled out democracy, only the problems with democracy, notably the lack of protection of minority factions including of the individual. Democracy and freedom are basically synonymous. However, I may mix classical and modern-political thought.
Please remember that (if we are to believe the dialogue) Socrates could have fled, but chose to drink the hemlock out of respect for the authority of Athenian government. Even where the state murders to censor critics, its dictates are not to be resisted. That is the mentality of Plato.
Really, Volume 1 of Popper's "The Open Society and its Enemies" is a must-read.
On 3/11/07, Bartning@aol.com Bartning@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/6/2007 4:19:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, andrew.cady@gmail.com writes:
Please remember that (if we are to believe the dialogue) Socrates could have fled, but chose to drink the hemlock out of respect for the authority of Athenian government. Even where the state murders to censor critics, its dictates are not to be resisted. That is the mentality of Plato.
You have misread the dialogue. Socrates has respect for the *law* not a respect for the government or his judges. In fact he insults his judges by suggesting as an alternate penalty for himself a state pension and additional perquisites. Furthermore, Socrates famously declined to assent to a state (government) decrees implementation when it was not based on law (the trial of the generals of the Sicilian campaign). Please do understand that the law is totally and categorically separate from the state and the government.
I won't touch on whether Athens was "true democracy."
Socrates was a fan of Spartas raw democracy, but other observers of the time claimed that Athens was best ruled when it was ruled neither by the "mob" (democracy) nor by the "tyrants" (rule of 30), but by a "select group" (rule of 5000).