Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does it mean to be a Troll?
Josiah (user:yoshiah_ap)
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On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 05:55:59PM -0700, Josiah wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does it mean to be a Troll?
Josiah (user:yoshiah_ap)
On Wednesday 10 November 2004 02:55, Josiah wrote:
what exactly does it mean to be a Troll?
It's an insult and when used on Internet communities it has several meanings: 1. Troll is anybody who is disliked by the person who uses that word. 2. Troll is anybody who disagrees with the older users or the administrators. 3. Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community. 4. Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of other users.
When used outside the context of Internet communities, a troll is a Nordic dwarf and http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trolling
For our purposes, except when used inappropriately as an insult or as a way of harrassing folks who disagree with you, these are the operative definitions:
- Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
- Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of other
users.
Fred
For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others, these are the operative definitions:
1. Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult; 2. Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree with you.
;)
Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote: For our purposes, except when used inappropriately as an insult or as a way of harrassing folks who disagree with you, these are the operative definitions:
- Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
- Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of other
users.
Fred
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Mark Richards wrote
For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the
community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others, these are the operative definitions:
- Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult;
- Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree with
you.
;)
I may be getting middle-aged and pompous, but I see nothing amusing here. Gresham's Law applies to Internet dialogue; trolls (not those who simply hold strong views) are the counterfeiters. Of course edit warriors reach for the T- and V- words.
Charles
-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Charles Matthews Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 12:00 AM To: English Wikipedia Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?
Mark Richards wrote
For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the
community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others, these are the operative definitions:
- Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult;
- Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree
with you.
;)
I may be getting middle-aged and pompous, but I see nothing amusing here. Gresham's Law applies to Internet dialogue; trolls (not those who simply hold strong views) are the counterfeiters. Of course edit warriors reach for the T- and V- words.
Charles
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-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Richards Sent: Thursday, 11 November 2004 10:53 PM To: English Wikipedia Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?
For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others, these are the operative definitions:
1. Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult; 2. Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree with you.
;)
Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote: For our purposes, except when used inappropriately as an insult or as a way of harrassing folks who disagree with you, these are the operative definitions:
- Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
- Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of
other
users.
Fred
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NSK wrote
It's an insult and when used on Internet communities it has several
meanings:
- Troll is anybody who is disliked by the person who uses that word.
- Troll is anybody who disagrees with the older users or the
administrators.
- Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
- Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of other
users.
Oh, do be quiet. 'Troll' has a definite meaning; 1 and 2 have nothing to do with it.
Charles
NSK wrote:
On Wednesday 10 November 2004 02:55, Josiah wrote:
what exactly does it mean to be a Troll?
It's an insult and when used on Internet communities it has several meanings:
- Troll is anybody who is disliked by the person who uses that word.
- Troll is anybody who disagrees with the older users or the administrators.
- Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
- Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of other
users.
When used outside the context of Internet communities, a troll is a Nordic dwarf and http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trolling
The internet definitions that you provide suggests a particular POV, especially the imputation of intent.
Although a troll can indeed be a nordic dwarf, that may not be the appropriate meaning.
More relevant is that the verb "to troll" is a fishing term to describe fishing method where by a fishing line with one or more often baited hooks is dragged behind a moving boat. The line itself can be referred tp by the noun "the troll".
By transference to internet parlance it becomes the practice of putting out bait to see who will grab it. The advice to not feed the trolls thus becomes a warning to the fish that they should not attempt to eat the fishhooks.
Trolling need not be inherently bad, though unfortunately many who troll do tend to take advantage of others. Sometimes putting out a little bait may be the only way to encourage a discussion that people tend to avoid. That practice, of course, needs to be used with great caution to avoid having the discussion deflected from the issue to the person who raised it.
Ec
Yes, in internet usage, a "troll" is usually someone who posts "flamebait" to a discussion. That is, they will state something that is highly controversial in order to elicit a strong reaction to it, typically a reaction against it. They are (usually) disliked because they are seen as just stirring up arguments for the sake of stirring up arguments. Occasionally, the troll might just be trying to get someone else's hidden opinion out into the open.
"Don't feed the trolls" basically means don't take the bait, don't encourage a troll by participating in the argument they were trying to start. Not feeding the trolls is generally good advice and just good netiquette.
-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces@Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of sockmonk@gmail.com Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 12:42 AM To: English Wikipedia Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?
Yes, in internet usage, a "troll" is usually someone who posts "flamebait" to a discussion. That is, they will state something that is highly controversial in order to elicit a strong reaction to it, typically a reaction against it. They are (usually) disliked because they are seen as just stirring up arguments for the sake of stirring up arguments. Occasionally, the troll might just be trying to get someone else's hidden opinion out into the open.
"Don't feed the trolls" basically means don't take the bait, don't encourage a troll by participating in the argument they were trying to start. Not feeding the trolls is generally good advice and just good netiquette.
sockmonk@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, in internet usage, a "troll" is usually someone who posts "flamebait" to a discussion. That is, they will state something that is highly controversial in order to elicit a strong reaction to it, typically a reaction against it. They are (usually) disliked because they are seen as just stirring up arguments for the sake of stirring up arguments. Occasionally, the troll might just be trying to get someone else's hidden opinion out into the open.
This is more in line with how I understand the term in an internet context. It allows for the fact that not all trolling is evil.
Ec
Charles Matthews wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote
It allows for the fact that not all trolling is evil.
Sez you. Bad faith, if not 'evil', is still not to be condoned.
Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote
Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.
Ray, troll-folk are not slow to make this argument for themselves. I hardly think this list needs its complacency undermined, or whatever you think you're doing with this special pleading. It is wretched stuff.
Charles
Charles Matthews wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote
Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.
Ray, troll-folk are not slow to make this argument for themselves. I hardly think this list needs its complacency undermined, or whatever you think you're doing with this special pleading. It is wretched stuff.
I agree that fisherman are competent at baiting their hooks. I would never have taken the participants on this list to be complacent; if anything, they have a tendency for the other extreme. We're full of Humpty Dumptys whose words mean exactly what they choose them to mean - neither more nor less. I would not consider my consideration of a word to be so lofty as to require "special" pleading. If a pleading it be, I would think it more properly directed to the pleasures of language, and to an appreciation of the subtleties that light a contrary meaning in a sky of darkness. "Wretched," yes. It is important to be charitable towa\rd those wallowing hippo wretches on the litoral of the litteral sea. :-)
Ec
You make it sound like 'troll-folk' are identifiable, and do nothing but 'troll' (whatever that is). In fact, this word is almost always applied to someone with whom we have a disagreement. It does not apply to them in general, usually just the thing we disagree with. This sort of dehumanizing generalisation is not helpful. Mark
--- Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote
Of course bad faith trolling is not to be
condoned, but the same can't
be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in
waking people up.
Ray, troll-folk are not slow to make this argument for themselves. I hardly think this list needs its complacency undermined, or whatever you think you're doing with this special pleading. It is wretched stuff.
Charles
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Mark Richards wrote
You make it sound like 'troll-folk' are identifiable, and do nothing but 'troll' (whatever that is).
You make it sound as if you have never come across an actual troll.
In fact, this word is almost always applied to someone with whom we have a disagreement. It does not apply to them in general, usually just the thing we disagree with.
Like I said, the term is consistently misused. Like I said, I see nothing funny or interesting in blurring its actual denotation.
This sort of dehumanizing generalisation is not helpful.
It is remarkably helpful to distinguish between rhetorical proponents of strongly-held views, and trolls who (as far as I can see) actually are dependent in a psychological sense on confrontational argument. The difference between needing to see that others hold sincere opposing views, and needing help.
Charles
--- Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
Mark Richards wrote
You make it sound like 'troll-folk' are
identifiable,
and do nothing but 'troll' (whatever that is).
You make it sound as if you have never come across an actual troll.
Well, in fact, the only time I have felt 'trolled' was by a Wikipedian apparently in good standing.
In fact, this word is almost always applied to
someone
with whom we have a disagreement. It does not
apply to
them in general, usually just the thing we
disagree
with.
Like I said, the term is consistently misused. Like I said, I see nothing funny or interesting in blurring its actual denotation.
I believe that this is entirely subjective. There is nothing about its 'actual denotation' that is not blurred.
This sort of dehumanizing generalisation is not helpful.
It is remarkably helpful to distinguish between rhetorical proponents of strongly-held views, and trolls who (as far as I can see) actually are dependent in a psychological sense on confrontational argument. The difference between needing to see that others hold sincere opposing views, and needing help.
Charles
On the contrary - the claim that the two can be distinguished is entirely unhelpful. It is simply an ad hominim attack dressed up.
Mark
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