So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
In and of itself, if they are/have identified as Jewish, no harm. Being Jewish is not a bad thing, or being identified as a Jew if that's what you are, ditto for whatever other religion. But it opens the door to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholics_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslims_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestants_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atheists_in_politics
Probably better as a category? And what politics, for that matter? English? American? Dutch? Taiwanese?
Regards, Joe http://www.joeszilagyi.com
On 31/05/07, Joe Szilagyi szilagyi@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
In and of itself, if they are/have identified as Jewish, no harm. Being Jewish is not a bad thing, or being identified as a Jew if that's what you are, ditto for whatever other religion. But it opens the door to:
Okay, de-Jewish it.
"This list of X contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as X by reliable sources."
It still just *sounds* weird.
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
Okay, de-Jewish it.
"This list of X contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as X by reliable sources."
It still just *sounds* weird.
Oh, certainly, for that. Category:Jewish Politicians In America or Category:Baptist Politicians In Ukraine would be better probably, but it's still a mouthful.
The "This is a list of Jews" up top just looks silly and redundant, also. We sort of got it from the article being "List of Jews". Might as well put a template up that says, "This is an article".
Regards, Joe http://www.joeszilagyi.com
On 5/31/07, Joe Szilagyi szilagyi@gmail.com wrote:
In and of itself, if they are/have identified as Jewish, no harm. Being Jewish is not a bad thing, or being identified as a Jew if that's what you are, ditto for whatever other religion. But it opens the door to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholics_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslims_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestants_in_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atheists_in_politics
You mean [[List of atheists#Politics and law]], [[List of Muslim leaders and politicians]] and [[List of Catholic leaders and politicians]], right?
Haven't found a similar one for Protestants yet. Though there is a list of Lutherans with politicians sections for both U.S. and non-U.S. people.
-- Jonel
There have been a lot of deletions of late of "Religion Y-ers" categories.
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
At the top: [[Template:Jew list]].
I am *not* making this stuff up. ~~~~
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
I would interpret it as meaning that Wikipedia editors *aren't* "outing" people, but only reporting what they find in other (published, reliable) sources. Kind of a "don't go digging into anyone's grandmother's birth records to see if they're Jewish" sort of thing. Of course, that would make it redundant with, you know, the site-wide policies it refers to. Though I imagine that a not-so-gentle reminder might be necessary for such a list.
I am amused by the "(Includes non-Jewish politicians)" next to Israel, though.
-- Jonel
On 5/31/07, Nick Wilkins nlwilkins@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
So, reading wikien-l in one window, and browsing random-article with the other, I came across:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_politics
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd? Discuss.
I would interpret it as meaning that Wikipedia editors *aren't* "outing" people, but only reporting what they find in other (published, reliable) sources. Kind of a "don't go digging into anyone's grandmother's birth records to see if they're Jewish" sort of thing. Of course, that would make it redundant with, you know, the site-wide policies it refers to. Though I imagine that a not-so-gentle reminder might be necessary for such a list.
Indeed, that was the point of the notice, since the project is filled with these lists, 90% of which are almost completely unsourced, and pruning these lists of unsourced items is almost impossible, since people come along and revert you when you do. For some reason people feel that these lists are immune from Wikipedia policy, and instead feel that they can invent various idiosyncratic criteria for inclusion.
There's a similar set of LGBT articles, and both they and the Jewish articles have been bouncing across CfD of late, along with a huge laundry list of "X-ish Ys" categories. There seems to be a tug-of-war between one group which wants to claim people out of some sort of ethnic/religious/sexuality pride, and another groups which is nervous about such lists.
I'm coming to the opinion that the category hierarchy scheme isn't working, and that we would be better served by some sort of dynamic facility which would produce the intersection of two (or more) categories on the fly. That leaves open, of course, the issue of whether we should identify people as Jews or homosexuals or what-have-you in the first place. My inclination would be "not", but someone else will have to fight that battle.
On 5/31/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd?
It appears in the earliest version of the article. A little poking around found contemporary discussions with the same pride/nervousness tension.
On 31/05/07, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
"This List of Jews contains individuals who, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies, have been identified as Jews by reliable sources."
Given the context of the ongoing discussion about wilfuly outing people... is it just me who finds that wording, hmm, a touch odd?
Yes. Anyway, I just removed it because of the guideline about Wikipedia self-references ([[WP:SELF]]). I also changed the first sentence to make the box less silly (as Joe Szilagyi comments, it might as well have been a template that says "This is an article").