On 7/21/08, Charles Fulton mackensen@gmail.com wrote:
If you haven't seen Lar deny anything then you haven't read his emails to this list. I encourage you to do so before sending any more mail here.
If you continue to make accusations which I know to be false, but the proof cannot be revealed, then you place me in an extremely awkward position, as you've already placed several other users.
I don't claim to be privy to your correspondence with Anthere, but the matter didn't end there as you well know, because I believe you were occasionally copied on emails. I'll have to check my archives to be certain.
You know, you're right. The matter was not taken officially to the Commission, and Lar in his summary indicated that he believed it had.
No, he did not say that he *believed* it had. He said that it had, when he knew that it had not, And you confirmed that his account was accurate, when you also knew that it had not.
I suspect this is because two of three ombudsmen (at least) already commented, privately, at length. It is true, however, that no official complaint has been made, by you or anyone else, ever. Why you have not done so baffles me, but I think you're obliged to make a formal complaint, either to Arbcom or to the Commission, or hold your peace. I will of course recuse if you choose the latter.
You would have been better holding your tongue and not getting involved in the first place. Lar used you.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:05 AM, SlimVirgin slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/21/08, Charles Fulton mackensen@gmail.com wrote:
Oh good, we're on to Kelly Martin. I think that about concludes the usefulness of this thread.
For onlookers, there's a good deal not being said here because, contrary to Slim's insinuations, I actually do give a damn about people's privacy, and their reputations.
Now, you'll have to direct me to this ANI thread, because I don't recall if specifically.
During this discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Inciden... you posted after Lar's very partial account, saying that it was accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_notice... But he claimed, inter alia, that the matter had been taken to the Ombudsman Commission, when you knew that it had not been.
I've been referring directly to a private conversation which I had with Lar dated March 11. At no time did Lar mention his wife. I should note that Lar specifically denies the allegation you've made, and claims to have private correspondence to prove it.
I don't know which allegation he denies. I have not seen him deny anything.
If you gained the impression from ANI that the Commission had officially looked into the matter then I regret that you gained that impression. We've not, as you've never lodged a formal complaint of any kind. In the course of your unofficial complaint to checkuser-l, of course, two of the three commissioners developed fairly vocal views on the question so frankly if you ever do lodge a complaint it'll come down to Hei ber's say so.
I did not complaint to checkuser-l. I wrote to Anthere to ask about extending the authority of the Ombudsman to checkuser policy violations. What makes you suddenly think that you know the contents of my private e-mails to Anthere?
I'll copy my letter to her below, so that you can see how wrong you are (as well as David and Thatcher).
Look, we can go round and round on this. If I was half the unscrupulous hack you've implied I would have published my private correspondence to this thread, but my personal vindication doesn't matter as much (yet) as the trust placed in me by various parties to not disclose certain things without their consent.
Is that "yet" supposed to be a threat? You clearly have no idea how inappropriate your behavior is from someone who is supposed to be a neutral party in a position of responsibility. Do you think that anyone reading this thread is going to trust you in future if they have a problem with a checkuser, and with Lar in particular?
Your position, if I understand it correctly (and I have no doubt that I'll be told that I do not), is that I am obligated to tell you when a checkuser whom you do not trust performs a checkuser on your account (or, rather, related accounts).
I have said no such thing. Charles, please read what people actually write.
My e-mail to Anthere:
From: SlimVirgin slimvirgin@gmail.com Date: Mar 18, 2008 1:34 AM Subject: Question about checkuser/privacy policies To: Anthere anthere@wikimedia.org
Hi Florence,
I have a question about something we talked about briefly last year.
We're continuing to find examples of checkusers who are getting IPs for established editors and admins out of apparent curiosity, rather than for any of the reasons listed in the checkuser policy. It's causing quite a bit of distress among some users.
However, because the Ombudsmen are told by the Foundation only to investigate privacy policy violations, there's nothing anyone can do about the misuse of checkuser short of a full ArbCom hearing.
I can't remember what the reason was for restricting the Ombudsmen in this way, but I wanted to ask whether you'd have any objections to the scope being extended, provided the Ombudsmen themselves agree. As it's a Foundation issue, who else do you think would need to be consulted?
Sarah
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:17 AM, SlimVirgin slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/21/08, Charles Fulton mackensen@gmail.com wrote:
You can interpret it however you like. I'm sitting here staring at the conversation from March. Given that I told Lar to *do nothing* while I consulted with two other people, you could argue that I told him not to tell you, but I effectively told him to tell no one else as well ... I found myself in a bit of pickle, not the least because of the significant, pre-existing gap of trust between users.
The lack of trust in certain checkusers is the main problem here. When Kelly Martin was given checkuser, I guessed that she would eventually use it on me, because she doesn't like me, and she appeared not to care about the rules. And sure enough, she did. When Alison and Lar were given it and started posting regularly to Wikipedia Review, I guessed that one or both would checkuser me at some point, and sure enough, one of them did.
It would be good if ArbCom or the Ombudsman commission would see to it that admins do not use checkuser for no reason against people they don't like. It would be good if you would ensure that people who are regular posters to Wikipedia Review refrain from using the tool against editors who are attacked, cyberstalked, and defamed there.
But this is so obvious, and such common sense, that the very fact that I'm having to suggest it shows how hopeless the situation is.
The primary role of the ombudsman is to review the release of private data. Given that no such release had occurred or appeared to be pending, I was not acting in that role.
You posted on AN/I that Lar had not told anyone about the check, yet you knew he had told his wife, another Wikipedian, and had done so without Wikitumnus's consent (which WT would not have given). You have aided Lar in this from the very beginning, and have done your best to help him cover his tracks. You even gave the impression on AN/I that the Ombudsman Commission had looked into this, which it did not.
The point, Charles, which seems to escape you, is that people on the Ombudsman commission are meant to be neutral and disinterested, so that editors trust them. If you care about that lack of trust, I hope you'll give your place to someone else.
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