On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:51:32 -0500, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
Alec, do you actually have any idea how patronising that sounded?
I suspect he did. And I wondered if you'd take it that way. Do you have any idea how stubborn and single-minded you're sounding, by so consistently missing the points people are trying to make? (I'm not talking specifically about Alec, but rather about everyone in this whole, extended debate.)
Yes, I am stubborn and single-minded. I was not aware this was a secret. I am, not, however, so stubborn that I am incapable of accepting when I am wrong.
I am, however, somewhat frustrated by the continual arrival of newcomers to old discussions, each requiring that the whole thing be gone through again.
I am all for deleting "long term abuse" pages, but at least they fix this particular problem.
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The complaint is not that the real trolls and vandals don't need banning. The complaints are instead about things like the transparency with which the bannings and ancillary actions are carried out.
Some of those methods won't be discussed in detail. If we tell the abusers how we pick them up, it will help them evade detection.
And some of it is blindingly obvious. When an anonymous editor comes along and starts a debate on a baseless allegation made by a banned user and already addressed by the individuals concerned, in some detail, then a degree of scepticism is perfectly reasonable.
We have some admins -- you are one of them -- who are regularly perceived as acting in a callous, high-handed manner. THIS IS A PROBLEM. It may not be a big problem, it may not be a problem that is worth solving or is possible to solve, it may not be a problem that you are willing to admit exists, but it is a problem.
And we have some users who routinely make querulous complaints about things that are blindingly obvious to anyone who is familiar with the problem, and insist on colouring every action with a filter of their pre-existing belief that such-and-such an action MUST be in support of a policy proposal they hate and which does not in fact have any current force.
From my perspective much of the demand for endless debate on this falls into the same category Phil identifies below re small and vocal groups of holdouts in policy debate. It reminds me of my kids on a stubborn day, and that will tend to make me react in a certain way.
And yes, I sometimes feel a bit beleaguered. When abusers phone your wife at home, it tends to raise the paranoia levels a bit.
Guy (JzG)