On 06/01/06, Sam Spade samspade.thomasjefferson@googlemail.com wrote:
When they argue about policy with longtime editors who actually know something about policy, they *are* doing harm. They are wasting the time and trying the patience of someone who is actually contributing to the goal of the project.
This is one of the worst things I have heard said in the context of the wikipedia. I politely ask you to rethink and restate this, as I assume you did not mean this.
I think I broadly understand the intended meaning.
There are policies on Wikipedia that are granite, bedrock; that we write from a neutral point of view, or that we are an enyclopedia and not an academic journal or discussion board.
There are policies on Wikipedia that are a matter of solid consensus; our image-licensing policies, or our (admittedly confusing) stance on What Dialect Of English To Use.
Then there are policies - well, guidelines - that are fluid, amenable; that we abbreviate US as "U.S.", or the minutae of the protection policy, or whether or not we italicise certain kinds of terms, or obscure naming conventions, or... oh, you could name thousands.
And, to confuse matters, we talk about them all as "policy", hence confusion like this.
So, our new guy comes along, and decides he wants to debate policy. Good-good; there'll certainly be someone willing to argue with him, whatever side he chooses - three geeks, one place, four opinions. And he may certainly have a new and innovative viewpoint on his topic.
But if he's going to argue over whether we're an encyclopedia, or whether we should search-and-replace every instance of "petrol" with "gasoline"... then *absolutely nothing* will ever be gained by this debate. We're set in our ways, we're not going to change because one persuasive guy comes along and suggests it, though he may be damn good at doing so.
(Indeed, on things like NPOV, we wouldn't change if one _city_ of persuasive people came along. You get the idea.)
It is good to discuss things. But discussing something that cannot and will not be changed is, to my mind at least, a bit of a waste of time. I'm all for debating political issues, but I confess to getting a bit tetchy when someone tries to debate gravity with me.
Anyone remember the guy who wrote to us - it might have been wikipedia-l, come to think of it - demanding that we set up an English English language wikipedia? Absolutely nothing to be gained by arguing with him - it just used up the time of a lot of people, without doing anything beneficial, and pissed a few people off. (Goodness knows I was one)
Arguing over something immutable - doesn't help anyone. Arguing over something we are willing to change, from a new viewpoint? Can certainly be helpful.
I hope that's the point Jay meant to make, and I hope if so it seems clearer...
-- - Andrew Gray
I like the way you put things far better, but I'd rather see the nubie complain about NPOV, have it explained to him, and learn about the foundation issues. Thats not what were talking about tho, were talking about userboxes, and thats a subject newcomers can and should discuss. We arn't going to compromise on the important stuff, but I dare say we have some room for compromise on the userbox issue.
The meta issue here is mentorship vrs. newbie biting, and I fear too much of the latter and far too little of the former are occuring.
Sam Spade