On 02/08/07, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
<cut> > I am no less sorry than anyone else to say this, but: the trolls > are out there. They are not going to go away. Most importantly, > they are *not our fault*. To imagine that they somehow are "our > fault", to pretend that we can do anything to make them go away, > is a futile, perhaps even delusional folly. </cut>
on 8/2/07 7:19 PM, Armed Blowfish at diodontida.armata@googlemail.com
wrote:
Stalking to the point of revealing someone's personal information to the world, making them vulnerable to further stalking goes beyond mere trolling. But that's semantics.
In any case, you are right - it is not your fault. The wrongs stalkers do are on their heads.
No, you can't stop every stalker / abuser / harasser in the world. Nonetheless, some environments are more friendly to stalkers than others. There are things that can be done to influence the statistics. Can you be blamed for not helping when you don't know how to help? No. But that doesn't mean there aren't things you can do to help... e.g. supporting people who have been hurt and helping to create an environment that is not friendly to stalkers/abusers/harassers.
Armed Blowfish
On 02/08/07, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
Yes, AB.
on 8/2/07 10:23 PM, Armed Blowfish at diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
Glad we agree on that much. : )
On 02/08/07, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
And stalkers, abusers, and harassers don't survive very long in an environment where the noise they are making doesn't get the reaction they need to thrive.
Marc
on 8/2/07 10:23 PM, Armed Blowfish at diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
'the reaction they need to thrive' And therein most likely lies our disagreement... What is 'the reaction they need to thrive'? Not any reaction. They want to do something... maybe cause pain, maybe get something for themselves... and they want to get away with it.
And how can they do that? Well, as for causing pain, that's simple. There are a million different ways to suffer, and they only have to find one way to cause the victim to suffer. If there is something more specific they want, it might be more difficult.
But getting away with it... how do they do that? Try isolating the victim from his or her social support. (This will also cause the victim to suffer.) Just like a lion luring a goat away from the herd... for even a lion may be trampled by a herd, but can easily overpower a single goat. How? Any way they can. And how can we stop it? Try to see it for what it is, and stand by the victim.
First, AB, I've never communicated with a blowfish before (at least not that I would admit publicly ;-) - and, certainly, not one that was armed!. :-)
I have read both of our posts here several times, and am having a hard time seeing where we disagree.
The only reaction the people we are talking about do not thrive on is silence. Beyond that, the type of reaction they need to thrive can be different with each individual.
Creating an environment that does not feed these people is not something you can mandate - it must be built into the very culture, and requires a self-discipline on all of our parts. If it becomes standard practice on Wikipedia not to respond to bullshit, the message will be loud and clear: if you're here just to provoke, and to pick a fight, you've come to the wrong place; and you're wasting our time and space.
And, I am a strong advocate of not only supporting the victim, but, in my work, helping them to heal.
Marc