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Complaint: Priority Inversion Specifics: Pseudo-Consensus Overturning the Big Three (and the Five Pillars)
JA = Jon Awbrey MB = Matt Brown
MB: So I have some questions:
MB 1. What would have been the ideal outcome in this case?
JA: First off, no single case of alleged abuse proves anything. I am responding to the request to cite a number of actual incidents, and it is the pattern of conduct that we ought to be concerned about, namely, where 2 or 3 or 4 possibly different persons, and possibly independent voices, or possibly not, acted in a way that I am alleging rather obviously violates what are and ought to be higher priority norms of participation in WP. These are, among others, lack of due regard for Relevant and Verifiable information, in contrast with the mere opinion of the editors, consensus or otherwise, and lack of due regard for the good faith time and effort of other editors to improve the quality of an article.
JA: The pattern of conduct that was exhibited over the space of a few days by this small group "new users" was a type of slash and burn and section blanking that I personally consider to be nothing short of rank vandalism, whether anybody else had the boldness to call it that or not.
JA: The ideal outcome in this case and the others like it -- what should be the routine outcome if the Policies of WP are respected in their declared order of priority -- would be that a simple reference to [[WP:Policy]] would suffice to remind the editor(s) in question what is most important in Wikipedia, as opposed, let us say, to the rules of some chat-room.
Have to break here.
Jon Awbrey
MB. 2. Do you think the editors should be forced to discuss the issue with you before removing this block quote?
3. Do you think consensus should not be used to guide decisions regarding Wikipedia content?
4. If so, then what decision making process should replace it?
MB: I hope I'm not putting words in Jon Awbrey's mouth by stating that he thinks
the problem is that when consensus can be defined as "Me and three of my friends I IM'd to come and agree with me", there's a problem. Especially when a "consensus" among like-minded people on the same side of an issue can be used to trump core Wikipedia policies and standard Wikipedia ways of working.
Part of the issue is that there's always tension between deciding an issue for good on the one hand, and having every single opinionated person coming along to any article being able to re-open things for which an adequate conclusion has already been reached.
Standard Wikipedia policy / practise here is that there are no permanent decisions on Wikipedia apart from core policy, but that if an issue has been decided by strong rough consensus, we're resistant to re-opening the issue unless the one wishing to re-open it can convince enough people that the previous rough consensus no longer holds.
"Strong rough consensus" in my opinion means an issue that for the vast majority of contributors has a result they can live with - even if not outright approve - and that has been reached after a satisfactory discussion, a satisfactory attempt at compromise, a respect for policy, and with sufficient editors involved that are representative on the issue.
IMO, a rough consensus is not a strong one, a good one, if it has been arrived at without discussion, without attempts to find common ground, without regard for over-riding policy, or without sufficient numbers of contributors or variety of points-of-view to be truly representative.
There are many editors on Wikipedia who want to truly do the right thing and achieve good results. There are enough others, however, who want articles to say exactly what THEY wish them to say, and who will game the rules and do everything they can to get their way. (There are probably other categories of editors, of course, but this is simplifying).
I have a feeling that another issue Jon has is that some contributors are too willing to remove things from articles if they don't like them, regardless of the work that went into them, the usefulness of the content, or in any way trying to achieve consensus for that removal.
Jon, do I have your positions right?
-Matt
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