On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
AfD can get it wrong: I suppose that is common ground. "Notability" as a concept is broken, always has been, always will be (my view, not necessarily the majority view given the status given to the GNG by some). In some cases it is really not a big deal whether a topic is included or not: there obviously is a level at which quite a number of reasonable people are pretty much indifferent to the outcome. The same people would not, presumably, be indifferent to the decision not being by "due process". There is an appeal against AfD's process aspect. Anyone can navigate there.
I think we first need to analyse whether this is a "manual page" problem or a "complaint procedure" problem. (Actually I'm going to put in a plug for "How Wikipedia Works" at this point: look in the index under "deletion", "deletion review" is on p. 226 and the page tells you what to do. If the guy really wanted to impress his colleague he could have done that.) If he'd mailed OTRS and got an unhelpful answer, I really would worry.
Look, the whole point of HWW or any other serious explanation about how we got this far that people are so bothered about our content is that you have to admit that: (a) the system does work, and is fit for the main purpose for which it was set up (contra Tony's view); and (b) it's complicated. There are no doubt people out there, in millions, who don't realise that you probably can't have (a) without (b). You surely could have (a) if you had enough paid staff, a skyscraper full of them (well, maybe 5000 graduates); and if you paid yet more you could give an impression that (b) didn't apply. The service would not be free at the point of use unless a large charitable foundation was picking up the bill. The complication in (b) is to do with decentralisation: multiple processes running in different places, as the only solution that is known to scale.
I can quite see why people do think Wikipedia "Byzantine", which is the basic message of what we are talking about. Probably trainee medics curse the immune system as unreasonably complicated. The metaphor doesn't seem to me either too defensive or too stretched. I think we should bear in mind that more and better written "manual pages" would only work better if people had the basic humility to read instructions, at least in the context of complex systems they don't understand.
Charles
You're making the argument that some complex systems (bureaucracy) are necessary and intrinsic to the success of the project. I think most people would agree. People are not challenging the existence of any bureaucracy; they're saying there is too much, that it's too difficult for the average person, and that we hallow bureaucracy and its mastery above more important considerations.
Nathan