On 5/29/07, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 30/05/07, Slim Virgin slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/29/07, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
That is: Gracenotes referred to BADSITES, and SlimVirgin opposed because he failed to oppose all links in any circumstances.
I opposed to begin with because Gracenotes posted to Wikipedia Review in opposition to these sites being placed on the spam blacklist, and then wrote in response to Q4: "I suppose you mean attack sites as those in which personal attacks are made against Wikipedians, without the intent of improving Wikipedia." That wasn't what I meant, it wasn't what the ArbCom said, and all these sites claim they intend to improve Wikipedia, so by that definition, there are no attack sites. I then also opposed because of the bot approval issue, the unclear answers, the inflated edit count from the automated script, and the low talk page participation.
Complete text of your oppose: "Strong oppose. I have to oppose based on Gracenote's answer to my question about attack sites. I feel that websites that out and defame Wikipedians should never be linked to; I certainly can't think of a single encyclopedic reason they would ever have to be. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)"
That looks, walks and quacks like BADSITES, and BADSITES was referenced by that name in Gracenotes' answer which you referred to in your oppose.
That is: your question, his answer and your oppose, and all the oppose !votes saying "Per SlimVirgin", are where I get my strange misconception that this was all about BADSITES. I wonder how I could have come to that conclusion. I must have been reading what you wrote on the RFA.
Agree.
Slim, I appreciate your elaborated strong oppose section, and I appreciate that the opposes aren't knee-jerk.
Many, by eyeball probably most of the opposes do seem to come down to "Gracenotes' position on this policy is something I can't support", though there are legitimate questions in other areas and questions about Gracenotes' support for other admins in general, regardless of what policy here says or doesn't say.
It's not fair to Gracenote to make them the whipping boy for a failed but popular proposed policy. I stayed away from this until Cecropia froze it; on review now, I have to agree that most of the opposes are apparently advocating a policy which is similar to BADSITES. Perhaps not identical, but there is still much debate in the wider community on how far we should (as a whole community) go on shunning the nuts out there, and the positions advocated in oppose fall in the same bucket that BADSITES generally did.
I still haven't made my mind up on the larger question; without trying to turn it into a policy, I'd say that an unreformed Wikipedia Review can stay linkbanned for all I care.
We're hitting more problems where not having a policy is causing problems. If we have a policy and there's disagreement, at least we have something to point people to in terms of behavior expectations, while there are open debates about directional changes in it. Lacking those expectations, people will get bit by the forms that the debates take. Voting against someone based on a specific unsettled point of larger policy is fair if you think they're so biased that they can't go along if the policy is eventually settled in a way they disagree with, but less fair if it's just opposition to their position.
I am far more worried that one of Merkey's anon detractors claims that they just got past RFA with another as-yet-unnamed account than worrying what Gracenote might do if he got adminned and we decide on a policy which is absolutely strict about attack sites. I see no sign that Gracenote would disrupt or refuse to go along with a settled policy which he opposes.