WikiEN-l July 2009

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88 participants
131 discussions

Re: [WikiEN-l] Bible websites
by WJhonson＠aol.com 09 Jul '09

09 Jul '09

In a message dated 7/8/2009 11:51:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, peter_jacobi(a)gmx.net writes: > There are two thousand years of > struggling factions of christianity and libraries full of > interpretations of bible verses. You cannot ignore this > and propose that the bible verse can speak for itself.>> > ------- The only thing that is being proposed is that in those articles where we have a bible verse citation, that we alter the way it's treated. Will ************** Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The current purges in English Wikipedia (...and my personal case)
by Andrew Turvey 09 Jul '09

09 Jul '09

Just to re-emphasis the point, in the words of the admin who blocked Desiphral: "at present there's no community consensus to block for commercial editing" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Bad_ne… ----- "Andrew Turvey" <andrewrturvey(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > From: "Andrew Turvey" <andrewrturvey(a)googlemail.com> > To: "Desiphral" <desiphral(a)gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, 9 July, 2009 17:37:06 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal > Subject: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] The current purges in English Wikipedia (...and my personal case) > > > Hi Desiphral, > > Not sure if you get these message - please find below the message I sent - hope it helps! > > Regards, > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: "Andrew Turvey" <andrewrturvey(a)googlemail.com> > To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Thursday, 9 July, 2009 17:35:34 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The current purges in English Wikipedia (...and my personal case) > > > Looking at the blocking notice [2], there seems to be a sensible solution to this: > > You stated [1] that: "Some years ago, other people I knew became interested in my work at Wikipedia and I gladly supported them. The initial idea was that each one should have a personal account, but in practice, since it was real life collaboration and we had available only one computer, most of their/our edits ended up under my username ... I learned later that some of them managed to supplement their income by working at Wikipedia." > > Per the policy [[WP:NOSHARE]], "Sharing an account – or the password to an account – with others is not permitted, and doing so will result in the account being blocked." > > It sounds like you had a clear contravention of this policy and the admins giving you a block seems to be the right thing to do. However, given your long history of good editing to the projects, particularly with the other account, you seem to have grounds to appeal the "indefinite" block. > > All you need to say is: > > "a) I accept that I shouldn't have let others use my account > b) I no longer let others use my account and won't in future > c) My account is not compromised as I have changed the password" > > Therefore: > > Given that it was done in good faith given that we only had access to one computer, and I have an otherwise clean record of extensive good faith edits to Wikipedia: > > "Please replace my indefinite block with a time limited block (maybe ask for a week?)" > > In the "Guide to appealing blocks" [3], it explicitly says: > > "You, as a blocked editor, are responsible for convincing administrators: • ... or: • that the block is no longer necessary because you understand what you are blocked for, you will not do it again and you will make productive contributions instead." > If they come back with other concerns about, say, paid editing, then you can address that then - but at the moment I'd suggest you focus on the reason given for the block. > > Do all that and I'm sure you'll be up and running in no time. :) > > Regards, > > Andrew > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Bad_ne… > [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Desiphral#Compromised_account > [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:GAB > > "Desiphral" <desiphral(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > From: "Desiphral" <desiphral(a)gmail.com> > > To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > > Sent: Thursday, 9 July, 2009 11:18:44 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal > > Subject: [WikiEN-l] The current purges in English Wikipedia (...and my personal case) > > > > I was recently indefinitely blocked in connection with the paid editing > > issue, without being a paid editor myself. Actually the paid users with whom > > I had a previous collaboration on voluntary subjects are even now free to > > edit. Worse, it is proposed the closure of the Wikipedia I put on track. > > > > > > Here are the relevant links: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Bad_ne… > > > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#The_Vlax_Romani_Wikipedia_an… > > > > and in this article: > > > > http://publish.indymedia.org/en/2009/07/926495.shtml > > > > this is the part that concerns me: > > > > > > "However, we find even more tragicomic and worrisome a strange case that > > occured in the last few days. One of the "detectives" > > found<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Bad_ne…>that > > the Tayzen account from Elance included in its portfolio from October > > 2008 the work of Desiphral, a veteran user who contributed a great deal of > > voluntary work at English Wikipedia and also founded the Wikipedia in his > > native language. The proposed conclusion, namely that this user is engaged > > in paid editing, was accepted by most of the other users without any > > inquiries. Quickly, in the discussion place there appeared users seemingly > > having some previous grudges against Desiphral, using the opportunity to > > request his block. Additionally there appeared some at least dubious users > > requesting the closure of the Wikipedia founded by Desiphral (in the > > language of a certain minority of Indian origin widely discriminated). In a > > normal (or better said, a previous) communication process at Wikipedia, such > > conclusions would have been dismissed as a good joke, but it was not the > > case here. We took our liberty to check the edits of the incriminated user > > and we did not find anything to suggest paid editing. Needless to say that > > the accusers too did not present any actual evidences for their allegations. > > > > After a few days, when it appeared there Desiphral himself, it turned out > > that he had some years ago a collaboration on Wikipedia with people from the > > staff of Tayzen, but not in the field of paid editing (our investigation > > found out that the respective Elance account did not even exist at that > > time). Somehow unexpectedly (given the current atmosphere of fear and > > adulation at Wikipedia around the issue of paid editing), besides > > complaining about the attempt of public shaming, he started to point out the > > unprofessional manner of conducting the current purges. There followed some > > retorts, then... silence. When we contacted Desiphral to find out what > > exactly is going on there, we learned that his account was blocked, but the > > blocking notice was hidden somewhere in the talk page, not displayed on the > > user account, as it is the common practice at Wikipedia. The "death > > sentence" was done on the sly, after talking too much, somehow reminding of > > our attempt to talk openly there. We found the blocking reason really > > sarcastic, namely that "he indicated he permitted the use of his account for > > commercial purposes" (without showing where exactly was that indication, > > while we could not find anything of this kind in his replies). Even if it > > would have been true, this is not a punishable offense on Wikipedia... only > > you'll get intro trouble with those who do not like this. The accusers > > changed later the reason for blocking to "group account", because he > > permitted some years ago some people to learn how to edit, using his > > account. Obviously, a pretext, the same "first shoot, then ask" pattern, > > since the casual teaching of other people did not amount to what is > > understood at Wikipedia as a "group account", plus that the respective user > > was not active on Wikipedia for about a year and a half and at the time > > scale of Wikipedia such old issues are not considered when judging an user. > > > > The suppressed user also told us that he was not announced by e-mail about > > the public shaming (he was not active on Wikipedia for long time and for > > such cases this would be the standard procedure), thus preventing him to > > present his position. He was not announced also about the following requests > > of somebody to block<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global#Global_lock_for_Desi…>him > > in the Wikipedias in all languages and to > > close down<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#The_Vlax_Romani_Wikipedia_an…>the > > one he founded. The most ironic thing in all this affair is that those > > suspected editing on behalf of Tayzen are free to edit even at this moment > > (although they keep being hindered), while the one who was wrongly accused > > to associate with them was taken to the backyard and executed on the sly for > > sulking against the conduct of the purges. The language and the conduct of > > this episode suggests a combination of muting the dissent and a seizure of > > the opportunity by some people who have a problem with the respective user > > and/or with the Wikipedia he started." > > > > > > > > After this episode, I have a feeling I am in China when logged in to English > > Wikipedia. I don't know if other users are in my situation. I guess that my > > luck resides in this coverage, to make my case known to the "free world". I > > did not check thoroughly the other things highlighted in the article, > > however, the links provided look compelling. > > > > > > Desiphral > > _______________________________________________ > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > >

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Re: [WikiEN-l] MediaWiki is getting a new programming language
by Sheldon Rampton 09 Jul '09

09 Jul '09

Charles Matthews wrote: > I'm not yet convinced that the absence of WYSIWYG is a barrier to WP > doing anything specific, and I don't believe that the usability > studies > I have seen prove that it is. But then I tend to believe that the > issue > with expository problems lies in the underestimation of expository > writing. The question is whether WYSIWYG would make editing Wikipedia articles easier for most users. I think the answer to that question is fairly self-evident. Twenty years ago there were similar debates about WYSIWYG with regard to word processors, just as there were debates about whether command- line DOS was better or worse than the GUI that Apple introduced with Macintosh computers. Some people back then argued that word processors like WordPerfect were better than WYSIWYG because you could go into edit mode and "see" the markup codes -- [b] for bold, [i] for italic, etc. Similarly, people argued that command-line DOS was better than dragging-and-clicking windows in a GUI because you could "see" the commands and their parameters. In the end, WYSIWYG and the GUI won. Most people don't WANT to see [b] for bold. They just want to be able to make the text bold. As a result, some once-dominant word processors died off, and Microsoft was forced to adapt by replacing DOS with Windows. Wikipedia has enough earned reputation that path dependency will keep it on top of the heap for the foreseeable future, even without WYSIWYG editing, but sooner or later someone will develop a better alternative -- either within Wikipedia, or outside it. ------------------------------------------- SHELDON RAMPTON Research director, Center for Media & Democracy Center for Media & Democracy 520 University Avenue, Suite 227 Madison, WI 53703 phone: 608-260-9713 Subscribe to our free Weekly Spin email: <http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/subscribe_sotd.html> Subscribe to our Weekly Radio Spin podcasts: <http://www.prwatch.org/audio/feed> Read and add to articles on people, issues and groups shaping the public agenda: <http://www.sourcewatch.org> Support independent, public interest reporting: <http://www.prwatch.org/donate>

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Re: [WikiEN-l] MediaWiki is getting a new programming language
by Sheldon Rampton 09 Jul '09

09 Jul '09

Stevertigo wrote: >> (1) No WYSIWYG editing system. > > Browsers by limitation are not real "WYSIWIG editing systems," and > because WP is a website, its nearly entirely dependent on the browser. > New functionality, regardless of its development, is mostly either > proprietary or useless unless the W3C deals with it. One improvement > that comes to mind is text edit fields that are readable and > formattable, so the distinction between presentation and editing text > is blurred - maybe quick shifting between edit and view modes. Nevertheless, there are a number of WYSIWYG editing technologies that people have developed which work with web browsers, such as FCKEditor. A number of non-Mediawiki wikis already have WYSIWYG functionality, as does Google's Knols project. I know people who have tried developing WYSIWYG for Mediawiki, and the main obstacle they encounter is the wiki markup language, which is too idiosyncratic to parse properly and consistently. If Mediawiki used some other markup syntax, such as XML or HTML, they'd be able to do it. The current syntax was designed with the original intention of making it very easy and quick for people to edit articles and add formatting such as bold, italic, hyperlinks, etc. However, even a lightweight markup language is still a markup language, and WYSIWYG is easier for most people, so in this regard Wikipedia has fallen behind with regard to state-of-the-art standards for user-friendliness. Moreover, the original simplicity of Wikipedia's markup syntax has been lost somewhat as new functionality has been added. The whole templates mess is an example of this. If someone were trying to design Wikipedia from scratch today, I think they'd be able to come up with a markup syntax that supports WYSIWYG very nicely, but of course designing it from scratch is not an option. There's too much legacy material that has already been created using the existing syntax, so changing it becomes very difficult. Again, this is en example of path dependency. ------------------------------------------- SHELDON RAMPTON Research director, Center for Media & Democracy Center for Media & Democracy 520 University Avenue, Suite 227 Madison, WI 53703 phone: 608-260-9713 Subscribe to our free Weekly Spin email: <http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/subscribe_sotd.html> Subscribe to our Weekly Radio Spin podcasts: <http://www.prwatch.org/audio/feed> Read and add to articles on people, issues and groups shaping the public agenda: <http://www.sourcewatch.org> Support independent, public interest reporting: <http://www.prwatch.org/donate>

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Wikipedia expert needed
by Fred Bauder 09 Jul '09

09 Jul '09

http://www.elance.com/jobs/wikipedia_expert_needed/web_content/15606905 Wikipedia expert needed Limited Project Open Bidding Elance Escrow Project Job Description Client: [subscribers only] (5 projects posted, 1 Awarded) Billing and Payment System confirmed Provider can contact client More info Client Location: Budget: Less than $500 Proposals Received: 4 Proposals (Average Bid: US$237.50 ) Posted: 10/25/2008 13:28 EST Proposals Accepted Until: Bidding Ended on 11/01/2008 13:28 Job Description: We need three pages created on Wikipedia by someone who knows how to format text and links for Wikipedia. We started writing one of the pages ourselves but it was deleted citing "CDS A7" [It is an article about a real person, organization (band, club ........ Register/login to view more details Attached Files: Job Details Job ID: 15606905 Category: Writing & Translation > Web Content Desired Skills: Web Content Job Type: Project - Fixed Fee Preferred Job Location: Provider can be located anywhere Use Escrow?: Yes Status Reports: Not Required More Info Job Start Date: Start immediately Job Posting Visibility: PublicVisible to everyone in the Elance community plus search engines. Seal Proposals: Proposal and proposal amounts can be viewed by anyone. More Info W9 Required: Client does not require W-9 submission. More Info Fred

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Bible websites
by WJhonson＠aol.com 08 Jul '09

08 Jul '09

I think what Tim was saying is that this magic link would only be for raw bible citations, not for templated ones. That is Gen 4:2 instead of {{biblequotex|Gen|4|2}} The raw citation would be magically linked to the wikisource KJV. That would be super. Then *if* someone feels the need to template it to link say to the NIV instead, then they could do that instead. Will Johnson ************** Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.

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Policy inquiry - slack for blocked users venting on their talk page
by George Herbert 08 Jul '09

08 Jul '09

I had thought we'd formally policyized the "please leave blocked users alone on their talk page and don't block them if they vent about the block (short of making threats against people, etc)", but I can't find anything on-wiki that has it in writing. I know I've had discussions with people about it before and there was a general admins consensus that it was a good thing - but it does not appear to be written down in policy, guideline, or an Arbcom decision I can find. Am I missing something, or did we really never write it down? If we did not, we probably should rectify that, and I'll SOFIXIT - but I wanted to ping out to other experienced people first to see if anyone could remember where it might be written that I just haven't found yet. Thanks! -- -george william herbert george.herbert(a)gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] MediaWiki is getting a new programming language
by WJhonson＠aol.com 08 Jul '09

08 Jul '09

In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:23:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet(a)tonal.clara.co.uk writes: > For example, how would you write something like, say, this artificial > example: > > {{#switch: > {{#iferror: {{#expr: {{{1}}} + {{{2}}} }} | error | correct }} > | error = that's an error > | correct = {{{1}}} + {{{2}}} = {{#expr: {{{1}}} + {{{2}}} }}}} > > in your new notation?>> -------------------- I don't have any new notation Neil. I don't have a new language. In fact we shouldn't be trying to create a *new* language. If we have four proposed languages from which to choose, then one of the criteria should be "easy to understand", "intuitive to the novice". That is my point. That's been my point. Will ************** Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] MediaWiki is getting a new programming language
by Neil Harris 08 Jul '09

08 Jul '09

> In a message dated 7/6/2009 3:54:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > usenet(a)tonal.clara.co.uk writes: > > >> Although the point could have been put more tactfully, I think the >> salient point here is that "English-like" programming languages have >> been tried before many times, and have (with the possible exception of >> COBOL) consistently been rejected in favour of compact equation-like >> languages.>> > > ------------------------- > > Neil let me just point out in counter-point that the two longest-living > third-generation langages, COBOL and BASIC are both still alive and well. > > Both use a most English-like foundation. > > > Is Python more represented in want-ads ? Most businesses still use older > generation languages, regardless of what is being taught in university. > > Will Johnson The reason why COBOL and SQL endure isn't their English-like syntax, which is a relic of the era in which they were designed, but because they were the first just-good-enough systems of their type. The same is true of C, which is an appallingly badly designed language by modern standards; but endures for the same reasons; familiarity, backwards compatibility and the widespread availability of trained programmers. But in its time, C was a _vast_ improvement over assembler, which is what it existed to replace. [Regarding want ads: granted, there are billions of lines of COBOL and BASIC code out there in the business world, but how many new projects do you see being created in COBOL or BASIC, and how many job ads for COBOL and BASIC programmers? http://langpop.com/ has a pretty good survey of what's actually used in the wider world. Gnomic ALGOL-esque languages like C, Java C++ and PHP lead the pack.] The MediaWiki template language survives for the same reason. This is not to say that it's perfect, or even very good: but it works, has a large installed base of legacy code, and general availability of the appropriate skills in the existing base of "programmers", and is just good enough to serve its purpose, and therefore survives on for the same reasons as above. Given the large installed base of existing template code, I believe it would a much better idea to start with the template language we currently have, and clean it up incrementally, than it would be to rewrite it from scratch and risk second system syndrome. Fortunately, it's (necessarily) machine-parsable, and it shouldn't be an insuperable task to clean up the syntax whilst still running alongside the old code, and remaining (mostly) backwards compatible. If this is done in stages, the current template coder base should learn the new syntax in parallel with the changes, and the new syntax should be much easier for new template programmers to learn. This has actually been done twice before: once with the creation of proper conditionals and the retirement of {{qif}}, and a second time with a subtle change in the semantics of the template system to make it faster and easier to parse and run. Perhaps the next move should be the replacement of {{{name|default}}} with something like ${name|default}, with $name as a short form for the common case? -- Neil

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MediaWiki is getting a new programming language
by Brian 07 Jul '09

07 Jul '09

They are going to add something like PHP/Python/Lua so that you can program the encyclopedia. If you want to participate in the conversation you should join wikitech-l. Cheers ;)

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