In a message dated 4/29/2008 11:45:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gmaxwell(a)gmail.com writes:
English Wikipedia is rife with errors of systemic class, things which
we could control/reduce, and I think you will agree with this even if
you and I do not agree on all of what those errors are or how to
resolve them.
These ought to be fixed, and the fact that fixing the things we can
control doesn't solve the things we can't is not a valid excuse not to
try.>>
-----------------
I think however that this *is* the counterargument. That is, that the
"errors" are not systemic, but rather random. Until we can agree on certain
specific kinds os systemic error that may or may not exist, we probably can't
discuss how to fix them.
Will
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In a message dated 4/29/2008 4:51:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
elipongo(a)gmail.com writes:
Oh, but it's from a "Reliable Source", so it must be right!>>
-------------------------
It's not *right* but it's quotable :)
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1. None of the offending ip numbers was blocked, ever.
2. RyRy5, not really intentionally as far as I can tell, restored the
worst version after an anon had cleaned it up!
3. East718 did the right thing and semi-protected... but only on April
26th, many days after the vandalism spree had died down
The article has never, even once, contained any useful information about
the victim. It has always been a stub. A quick look around the web
suggests that it will never be more than a stub.
(Of the top 10 hits in google, more are about his wikipedia entry than
anything else!)
All of the following is still in the article history, where it might be
read by Mr. Kinnear's children, his mother, future employers, etc.
I propose that policies still need a lot of work to get us to where we
need to be on BLP.
Please read all of the following, and ask whether it reflects the values
we all hold for our project.
===============
08:35, 6 September 2006 - ''Bob Kinnear''' is a douchebag in
[[Toronto]], [[Ontario]], [[Canada]]. He is the leader of the
[[Amalgamated Transit Union]], Local 113.
11:51, 27 March 2008 - In September 2007, a report released to the
public stated that Kinnear is developmentally delayed. He is an active
supporter and volunteer of the guns for toys program in Toronto.
11:51, 27 March 2008 - In September 2007, a report released to the
public stated that Kinnear is developmentally delayed. He is an active
supporter and volunteer of the Guns for Toys program in Toronto.
13:32, 10 April 2008 - Heavy marijuana user.
16:11, 10 April 2008 - He is a heavy marijuana smoker
16:16, 10 April 2008 - nickname = Iron Mike<br/>Baddest Man on the
Planet<br/>Kid Dynamite
11:17, 17 April 2008 - '''Bob Kinnear''' is a douchebag.
12:32, 17 April 2008 - Mr. Kinnear believes that striking and screwing
over the City is the best possible way to line his workers pockets with
more money. In a recent study, over 25% of TTC riders believe that Bob
Kinnear is a supreme douchebag.
15:21, 17 April 2008 - He (here on referred to as "a giant piece of
shit") has made a scapegoat of himself by directing the workers of the
[[Toronto Transit Commission]] to strike on [[April 21]]st, 2008 at 4:00
a.m., leaving at least one million commuters who rely on the TTC to fend
for themselves.
15:22, 17 April 2008 - BOB KINNEAR IS A FUCKING RETARD.
15:23, 17 April 2008 - BOB KINNEAR EATS SHIT.
16:51, 17 April 2008 - '''Bob Kinnear''' is a labour leader and pirate
in [[Toronto]], [[Ontario]], [[Canada]]. He is the leader of the
[[Amalgamated Transit Union]], Local 113.
20:34, 17 April 2008 - Bob Kinnear is a Class A cock-smoker with a
terrible set of plugs. Born in a trailer park, the bastard son of a
dirty Carney and his retarded cousin, Bob grew up to be the colossal
piece of shit that likes to shut the city down every two years so he can
whine. Whine about how his $25+ dollar an hour plus benefit
bus/streetcar drivers, some of the RUDEST, surliest people on earth,
don't get paid enough.
+
+
Whine about how when every once in a while, one of these pricks lips off
to the wrong person and gets slapped around for it. Yeah it's the city
and there are SOME crazy/shitty /violent people, and unprovoked
incidents DO happen. Welcome to the big city genius. Bob should spent a
day incogneto on the system and find out EXACTLY how these people treat
riders. It ain't pretty. I'm sure they're all sunshine and lollypops
when they know the Boss or the Media is watching. Bob's in for a rude
shock when the Union's forced back to work by Monday night then deemed
an essential service by the Province.
+
+
Toronto is FED UP. The public is NOT behind you in any way, shape or
form. We all knew that you would not be giving 48 hours notice of a
strike because you knew it would be like shoving drivers through a meat
grinder for 48 hours. I mean really, Bob. Did you REALLY think we'd
believe that you would put the employees out the with the pissed off
public that you're fucking over? Coward. Typical Union. Now we get to
wake Monday morning before we know for sure. Congrats Bob, you're in for
a rude shock when the Union's forced back to work by Monday night then
deemed an essential service by the Province probably not long
thereafter. (Hint: expect it to be an election issue, which means you
are fucked.) Maybe if you end up getting a few days off, you could go
fix that hair of yours. Is that what all this is about Bob? Money to get
the rest of the plugs done? You're a dickhead Bob. You sound like a
whiny jerk who just loves to have his little media moments. Kind of like
that Craig Brommel idiot from the police union. The TTC WILL end up an
essential service after this stunt sport, and when it is you and all
those lazy, rude, jackasses you call employees can go pound sand up your
collective asses if you don't like what you're offered or don't let the
door hit you on the ass on the way out.
+
+
Remember dummy, the public isn't going to be real inclined to be kind to
TTC employees after spending a few days rotting in traffic or walking
for miles/hours every day. Don't whine when there's a backlash. You
unions are masters of cutting your own throats when it comes to public
support. It boggles the mind.
+
Worth a Million? More like WORTHLESS.
20:40, 17 April 2008 - ''Bob Kinnear''' eats babies in [[Toronto]],
[[Ontario]], [[Canada]]. He is deathly afraid of Chuck Norris and is in
charge of reach-arounds at the [[Amalgamated Transit Union]], Local 113.
02:40, 20 April 2008 - '''Bob Kinnear''' is a self serving jack-off in
[[Toronto]], [[Ontario]], [[Canada]]. He is the leader of the
[[Amalgamated Asshole's Union]], Local 113.
02:44, 20 April 2008 - '''Bob Kinnear''' is a self serving jack-off in
[[Toronto]], [[Ontario]], [[Canada]]. He is the leader of the
[[Amalgamated Asshole's Union]], Local 113.
17:06, 20 April 2008 - Kinnear's attempt at organizing a system-wide TTC
strike in April 2008, which would affect some 1.5 million daily
commuters, was averted nearly two hours past the self-imposed deadline
of 4 p.m. on April 20. I guess a whole bunch of fat, lazy, overpaid,
underworked, unionized bastards will have to be cancelling their
vacation plans.
It is overkill because, the specific examples mentioned can be handled
without cutting off our feet in the process. All non-mainspace covers an awful
lot of territory. It is not all problematic, the specific examples mentioned
are in specific areas which could be specifically addressed without the need
to kill a mosquito with a sledgehammer.
Will Johnson
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Any part of non-mainspace could refer to real names with negative
implications.
Are we now to be the net-nannies for the galactosphere?
There are many ways for persons so-named to handle the situation aren't
there?
That they don't is a pretty good reason for us not to either.
Will Johnson
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In a recent discussion on the Wiki someone made a proposal which began
"In the case of biographies of living people, where a number of
editors have expressed the opinion either (...)".
One of the outspoken critics of the general class of proposal began
his retort "First, what is 'a number'? As a mathematician I'll tell
you that 0 is a number."
Now, I didn't particularly support this proposal either, ... but I'm
not about to argue that zero users fits the proposed criteria. In the
same general set of proposals there were a couple of people earnestly
arguging that some change to AfD closure procedure could be expected
to result in the deletion of [[George W. Bush]] and [[Bill Clinton]].
... I don't think the particulars of the proposal are relevant for
the meta-issue I'm raising here, if you want to argue about BLP and
AfD there is a dandy discussion going on on the wiki...
But how can the project ever hope to continuing surviving when people
slash at honest proposals with outrageously literalistic arguments
like this?
Saying that things in BLPs "hurts people" only furthers the idea that that
is what we're avoiding. It's a simplistic approach to a complex issue.
Things that we re-report, summarize, etc in BLP's is sometimes going to hurt
people. We've been over this ground before. Not only people who do stupid
things (like murder, rape, etc.), but people who are mentioned nationally
doing embarrassing things as well.
Our mission is not to protect people from themselves. That is *their*
mission.
Our mission is to rely on reliable, verifiable sources to tell the public
what *is* going on.
Hiding half the world, from the world, does not help our project. It makes
us look like censors.
Will Johnson
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In a message dated 4/29/2008 1:07:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tonysidaway(a)gmail.com writes:
We're censors. That is a necessary part of writing an encyclopedia.
Yes, we've been over this ground before, and every single time we come
down to this: we are not here to make things worse. We are not here
to push out trash. >>
--------------------------------
Strawman.
Nobody is arguing that we should "make things worse" nor that we should
"push out trash".
Rather what's being argued is that we should report what *is* published by
reliable, third-party sources.
Nothing more or less.
Will Johnson
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In a message dated 4/29/2008 11:25:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
moreschiwikiman(a)hotmail.co.uk writes:
My own view is this: Wikipedia's dispute resolution process works fine when
it's case of two or more good-faith contributors engaging in a genuine debate
over something where debate is meaningful. The process is hopelessly
inadequate to deal with editors who act tendentiously or not in good faith, or in
circumstances where there is no meaningful debate to be had (homeopathy).>>
-------------------
This is a no-starter because of your phrasing.
Those who have followed the debate as "journalists" and encyclopedists,
instead of adherents understand that the point of the homeopathists isn't to
conquer all the science articles. But the point of the non-homeopathists is to
destroy all the homeopathy articles. Hardly the same position.
We are not a science project. We are a project to document all human
"knowledge", to say homeopathy is not knowledge is tendentious.
Will Johnson
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