WikiEN-l September 2005

wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org

135 participants
230 discussions

WTF? Is it suddenly OK to ignore consensus on AfD?
by Michael Turley 25 Sep '05

25 Sep '05

Neutrality just closed a AfD regarding Crescent Park Elementary School by deleting the article. The debate and discussion included 19 keep votes, and 15 delete votes, one merge and one "merge or delete" vote. Since when does a majority keep mean to delete the article? -- Michael Turley User:Unfocused

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WTF? Is it suddenly OK to ignore consensus on AfD?
by Rob 25 Sep '05

25 Sep '05

Why is this an emergency? Why not just email the guy and let the issue sit until tomorrow? Wikipedia will not fall because a couple school stubs didn't get undeleted for 24 hours. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com

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"Fair use" abuse on user pages
by Kelly Martin 25 Sep '05

25 Sep '05

I've just removed two references to [[Image:Mac Internet Explorer.png]] and two to [[Image:XPlogo.png]] from user pages. While both of these images have a good argument for fair use on the appropriate articles about their related products, there is no fair use argument for placing these on user pages or in cutesy little "product endorsement" boxes (see [[User:NSR/userboxes]]) for people to put on their user pages. Wikipedia doesn't need to carry advertisements for anybody, especially not using copyrighted logos. Kelly

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Dynamic navigation boxes
by Phroziac 24 Sep '05

24 Sep '05

Lupin helped me get the dynamic navigation box stuff set up right. It now works while i'm logged in, and it should work for pretty much anyone in a modern browser, and it should fail quietly in ancient browsers. It's only in the monobook skin for now though. Check it out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Dynamic_navigation_box It still has the show/hide thing at the top, but meh, I like it that way. Now the cabal members just need to unilaterally force these things on everyone else. Err....TINC...

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Dictionary of National Biography
by Andrew Gray 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

People may be interested to note that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is doing an open-access weekend; the entire online version is free to use (with a quick registration) for the next couple of days. This may be pretty useful for those who've written articles on obscure people and want to factcheck... -- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk

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Funky tricks on de
by Worldtraveller 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

On the German Wikipedia, I've noticed they've got a nifty trick with templates whereby you can include a button to hide an infobox, in the same way as you can hide a contents box. See an example down at the bottom of this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thematische_Navigation_Deutschsprachige_L%C3%A… I don't know of any templates to do the same thing on en:, and when I tried to replicate the code on the German templates it didn't work. Does anyone know how one might get something similar working on en:? WT

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Auto blocker is bad
by Jack Lynch 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

Can we please get rid of it? The harm rather dramatically outweighs the good. Jack (Sam Spade)

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Equality
by Zephram Stark 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

While some people are quite good at diverting sensitive discussion toward whether or not certain editors are evil, or to questions about the mating habits of Jews, none of these things are relevant to my proposal. As per the numerous quotes I listed, and the governments founded upon those concepts, general consensus amongst political philosophers is that truth, goodness, and beauty will all rise to the top in a system where equality is recognized and supported by the construct of government. Even though equality is not recognized here at Wikipedia by administrators who think they have the right to punish other editors, it still exists in the form of "vandalism" and other methods of indirect expression. To the extent that editors believe there is no better method to influence the content of articles than consensus, vandalism will cease to exist. The above is a bold statement that would require considerable risk to implement, but it is exactly the same concept that the founders of my country pledged their "Lives," "Fortunes," and "sacred Honor" to protect. I submit that my nation, the United States of America, is a success because they did so. It is possible to write the programming code for Wikipedia so that no administrators are necessary and so that nobody can gain undue influence over an article. I would be happy to write this code for free if we can all agree that it will be implemented. Zephram Stark zephramstark(a)yahoo.com 432-224-6991 --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

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Re: AfD Threshold being Revised Downward Again?
by Zephram Stark 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

>AfD has two deeply seated problems. >1) It is unmanageably big, and will only get bigger. >2) The case for deletion can usually be made with a cursory look at >the article. The case for inclusion often requires mildly substantive >research using non-Wikipedia sources. Thus deletion is always going >to be a fundamentally easier case to argue. >Thus it will always be the case that AfD becomes unmanageable, and >that the unmanageability affects the exclusionists noticably less >than the inclusionists. >-Snowspinner Wasn't the above basically the same argument for the last government iteration of the Soviet Union? I have an alternate suggestion on how a society should be governed that I'm sure you can extrapolate from the following quotes: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. C. S. Lewis Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819 Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Thomas Jefferson, in his 1801 inaugural address Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the governments purposes are beneficient... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue. Barry Goldwater The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual crime. Max Stirner Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere. Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abigail Adams, 1787 & what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787 Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. John F. Kennedy Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. Daniel Webster What, then is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. Frederic Bastiat, The Law The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859 You [should] not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered. Lyndon Johnson, former President of the U.S. It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed? James Madison, Federalist Papers 62 The people cannot delegate to government the power to do anything which would be unlawful for them to do themselves. John Locke, A Treatise Concerning Civil Government Dont ever think you know whats right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows whats right for you. Paul Williams, Das Energi Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others. Edward Abbey What luck for rulers, that men do not think. Adolf Hitler He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. Friedrich Nietzsche For what is liberty but the unhampered translation of will into act? Dante Alighieri If you make people think theyre thinking, theyll love you; but if you really make them think theyll hate you. Anonymous The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws. Tacitus The ideal government of all reflective men, from Aristotle onward, is one which lets the individual alone one which barely escapes being no government at all. H. L. Mencken Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton The best government is that in which the law speaks instead of the lawyer. M.L. Byrn Every man, and every body of men on earth, possesses the right of self-government. Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Residence Bill Man [is] a rational animal, endowed by nature with rights, and with an innate sense of justice; and... he [can] be restrained from wrong and protected in right, by moderate powers, confided to persons of his own choice, and held to their duties by dependence on his own will. Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson The qualifications for self-government in society are not innate. They are the result of habit and long training. Thomas Jefferson to Edward Everett [Without becoming] familiarized with the habits and practice of self-government,... the political vessel is all sail and no ballast. Thomas Jefferson to Henry Dearborn [It is a] happy truth that man is capable of self-government, and only rendered otherwise by the moral degradation designedly superinduced on him by the wicked acts of his tyrant. Thomas Jefferson to M. de Marbois I am not discouraged by [a] little difficulty; nor have I any doubt that the result of our experiment will be, that men are capable of governing themselves without a master. Thomas Jefferson to T. B. Hollis The hand of the people... has proved that government to be the strongest of which every man feels himself a part. Thomas Jefferson to Edward Tiffin We think in America that it is necessary to introduce the people into every department of government as far as they are capable of exercising it, and that this is the only way to insure a long-continued and honest administration of its powers. Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Arnoux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It has been argued, in this mailing list, that Wikipedia is a company, and that many companies are run as a successful hierarchy with only a profit motive to keep the grunts in line. In making this argument, however, we have to realize that we don't pay the grunts anything. They are only here because they think they can make a real difference. When they figure out that only the top administrators have any real power to influence the content of articles, they make a few vain appeals to "level the playing field" and then leave in frustration. Now that we have grown to an unwieldy size, it is painfully obvious that we cannot continue top-down approval of writings. Yesterday, User:Carbonite deleted an entire article without reading the definitions involved or understanding the issues. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carbonite&oldid=2363531…) I feel confident that, if he had time to read the article he was redirecting toward, he would have realized that the people involved were doing nothing but trying to slam the U.S. Declaration of Independence via POV conclusions and original research. Carbonite did not have time to look at his actions objectively for the same reason that the Soviet Union found its task unwieldy: top-down micromanagement of large-scale social interactions takes too long. The only efficient way to keep Wikipedia going at this point in our growth, is to make it self-manageable. Giving up top-down control sounds like a risk, but many of the greatest thinkers of history are behind us, and look at the result if we don't: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carbonite&oldid=2363531… Thank you for your consideration and, hopefully, your action, Zephram Stark zephramstark(a)yahoo.com 432-224-6991 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Equality
by David Gerard 23 Sep '05

23 Sep '05

Alphax wrote: >Zephram Stark wrote: >> The above is a bold statement that would require considerable risk to >> implement, but it is exactly the same concept that the founders of my >> country pledged their "Lives," "Fortunes," and "sacred Honor" to >> protect. I submit that my nation, the United States of America, is a >> success because they did so. >I submit that trolls who have been banned from Wikipedia have no place >on the mailing list, either. That's not strictly true because wikien-l is in fact the official sewage pipe for en: Wikipedia. We chuck 'em if they get *really* bad (Enviroknot trolling under whatever names) or stupid or obnoxious (Skyring, who did the one thing he was asked not to do). Zephraim is still on moderation, though. - d.

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WikiEN-l September 2005