WikiEN-l May 2005

wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org

118 participants
211 discussions

Re: Live and Let live? Oh, really?
by Robert 20 May '05

20 May '05

Alphax writes to me: > At present, there is *no* neutral way to represent dates. > Let's just call a spade a spade and not try to make > something sound like something it's not. You're very confused. I am not making any such claim. Alphax writes: > If you feel you are being forced to use Christian terminology, > why use the Christian date system at all? CE is still based > (albeit incorrectly) on the birthdate of one Jesus of Nazareth. Stop being disingenous. We all agree that the numeric dating system currently in use has to be the one that is used in all articles. It is just the Jesus-worshipping honorifics (BC/AD) that some of us object to. The growing consensus in the academic community is to use religion-neutral terms such as BCE/CE. Alphax, you know this, as we have explained this many times to you. So please do not pretend that you are still unaware of this. I had written: >> I already have put up with enough abuse today, as several >> of my fellow faculty and staff came - as well as many >> students - in with T-shirts advertising "Jesus Day" at a >> public school. It had a motto that said that only through >> Jesus will anyone find God, and that all others are doomed >> to be without God (i.e. damned to Hell.) Apparently being >> in the vast majority is not enough for some right-wing >> Evangelical Protestant Christians. They have to push their >> threats of damnation via religious proselytizing in public >> arenas?! Alphax replies: > e-van-gel-i-cal adj., of the Gospel noun, one who is committed to > the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the only gospel of salvation; by grace, > through faith, under the authority of the Bible, empowered by > the Holy Spirit, to the Glory of God. You live in the US? Again, stop pretending that all members of this list are illiterate. We understand fully how Protestant Chrisitan fundamentalists define this term. > You have heard of Freedom of Religion? Yes, and please stop making such bizarre implications. No one is preventing Christians (or Muslims or Jews) from having their own theology, from having their own beliefs, from worshipping in their own houses of worship, or from following their own religious practices. Freedom of religion, however, prevents people from one religion from harassing people from another religion. US law prohibits people from harassing others with this kind of religious proselytization. (In fact, I already have been notified that if I choose to bring a case against the people I referred to, I will almost certainly win. I am trying to find a non-legal way to do deal with them. They do think that all Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and agnostics are damned to hell, and they are making difficult to work where I am an employee.) You seem to imagine that "Freedom of religion" actually means "Freedom for religious fundamentalists to create a hostile workplace environment", and that "Non fundamentalists have no rights at all." You worldview is the same as that of religious dictators. You also seem ignorant (in the literal sense of the term) of US law. > We live in a society that has seen the marginalisation, > desecration and humilitation of Jesus Christ. Are you joking, or trying to start a holy war against all non-fundamentalist Christians? It is enraged fundamentalists like you who start inquisitions, crusades and jihads. I hope other Wiki-En editors are keeping a close eye on your submissions. Robert Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html

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Re: Live and Let live? Oh, really?
by Robert 20 May '05

20 May '05

MacGyverMagic/Mgm writes: > Sure, not everyone has the Christian religion, but aren't the terms BC and AD > most commonly used amonst archeologists and historians? We shouldn't give up > on an accurate description of the most used terminology in favour of neutrality > if the world isn't neutral about it itself. Discussing points pro- and con- on this issue should be discussed on the appropriate project page. However, I do find it revealing that you seem to be saying that we should not follow NPOV "if the world isn't neutral about itself." That proves Steve's point. Many people here are essentially admitting that they will simply not follow our NPOV policy if it upsets some of their core beliefs, or standard conventions. JayJG writes: > A rather interesting parallel to the accusations that have sometimes filled this list > claiming that people are anti-Semitic, don't you think? I don't quite understand why you say this, since you have in effect agreed with this point in a great many cases. I have watched with interest as you have worked with many others here - including me - against a spate of neo-Nazi biased statements and articles. I'm quite glad that you recognize the problem and often so often and so hard work to counter it! Robert (RK) Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

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Live and Let live? Oh, really?
by Robert 20 May '05

20 May '05

Ed writes: > This whole thing smacks of an "anti-religious agenda", > rather than any sincere effort towards neutrality. > When we couldn't agree on British vs. American spelling, > we chose this solution:... > >...Ever hear of live and let live? Sheesh! I am rather disturbed by the rather paranoid claims filling this list that people are anti-Christian, and persectuing Christians, and discriminating against Christians, etc. These angry accusations are false, hurtful, and simply disingenuous. I can't believe that anyone seriously believes that following NPOV and referring to dates in a neutral way is meant as an evil plot against that poor and few in number minority, the Christians.... It seems to me, rather, that some people are just venting anger, as they refuse to let others "live and let live". Frankly, for the majority of people on this planet who do not worship Jesus as their God, messiah and saviour, it makes no sense to force them to use religious Christian terminology. It is those who ask for a "live and let live policy" who are being attacked, not the Christians. I already have put up with enough abuse today, as several of my fellow faculty and staff came - as well as many students - in with T-shirts advertising "Jesus Day" at a public school. It had a motto that said that only through Jesus will anyone find God, and that all others are doomed to be without God (i.e. damned to Hell.) Apparently being in the vast majority is not enough for some right-wing Evangelical Protestant Christians. They have to push their threats of damnation via religious proselytizing in public arenas?! I'm one step away from filing a complaint, as this clearly constitues a hostile workplace environment. And what's next? Jihad T-shirts from Islamists demanding that all Americans accept Allah and the Quran? Atheist t-shirts from Communists demanding that all Americans accept Marx and Engels? That behaviour is just great...if you hate your neighbor and want to start a religious war. Let's stop pretending we have NPOV and that we tolerate our fellow man, and let's start acting that way in practice. Robert (RK) I�m astounded by people who want to "know" the universe when it�s hard enough to find your way around Chinatown. - Woody Allen Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Schools on en: (was Do Imisunderstand Wikipedia
by Rick 20 May '05

20 May '05

--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com> wrote: > Rick said: > > > > --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com> > > wrote: > >> Non-notability has been rejected as a criterion > for > >> deletion. > > > > By some. There is no consensus on this issue. > > > Ergo, it has been rejected. That's how we make (or > don't make) policy on > Wikipedia. Um, no, there is no consensus either way. RickK __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

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Juvenalia
by dpbsmith＠verizon.net 20 May '05

20 May '05

I'm thinking out loud, and I am not making any specific proposal or coming to any particular conclusion. I haven't been following the recent school brouhaha, but it seems to me there's an aspect to the school issue that people have been tapdancing around. In addition to the general encyclopedias, there are a host of single-volume encyclopedias on limited topics. The Encyclopedia of Chicago. The Encyclopedia of Buddhism. Encyclopedia of Western Railroad History. The American Horticultural Society A to Z Encyclopedia of Garden Plants. The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. Donna Kooler's Encyclopedia of Crochet. The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. The Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Comic Book Encyclopedia. My guess is that I would personally accept 99% of this material as being "encyclopedic," even if much of it is on material I personally have little interest in. Why? Because to me, encyclopedic does not mean "of personal interest to me." It means "having _some_ reasonable level of thoroughness, accuracy, and scholarship." An article _needs_ to have these things if it is to serve the reader. But Wikipedia is an all-volunteer contribution. That means that it also needs to serve contributors. But there has to be some kind of balance. A vanity page is an obvious example of a page that is out of balance. It serves _primarily_ the ego of the contributor. Now, what happens when someone wants to contribute to Wikipedia, but doesn't really have the skill set to do so? I suspect that a lot of the arguments about certain classes of article are really related to age-specific interest, and to age-related levels of skill and maturity. I sometimes fancy I hear in these debates the voices older siblings putting younger ones in their place. Articles about Pokemon are baby stuff--wait until you grow up and can write articles about _serious_ things like Harry Potter. Harry Potter articles are cruft--they're not _important,_ like Hilary Duff, or Britney Spears, or Justin Timberlake. I sometimes fancy that when people say "let _articles_ undergo organic growth," which is nonsense because article do not grow, people write them, what they are really saying is "don't discourage young _contributors_" (who certainly will undergo organic growth). The problem with high schools has little to do with notability. It is that the people most likely to be interested in writing articles about them are people of high-school age, who _for the most part_ tend not to have the skills to write very good encyclopedia articles. These articles tend to be out of balance: they mostly serve the needs of the contributors, rather than the needs of readers. Now if, in fact, we actually have a crowd of serious worker bees who really will swarm around all the little irritating particles of school substubs and deposit the nacre of scholarship on them until they become sparkling crystals :-) then there's probably no harm in them... -- Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith(a)verizon.net "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print! Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The schools table
by Rick 19 May '05

19 May '05

--- David Gerard <fun(a)thingy.apana.org.au> wrote: > Rick (giantsrick13(a)yahoo.com) [050520 07:46]: > > --- David Gerard <fun(a)thingy.apana.org.au> wrote: > > > > Far too often I see it used to mean "it must not > be > > > important because I've > > > never heard of it." > > > Far too often I see this straw man argument used > to > > villify people with good intentions. I've seen > far > > too many times, "Keep it, it must be notable, I've > > heard of it." Isn't that just the other side of > the > > same coin? > > > Only insofar as notability is itself a deletion > reason per policy, which it > isn't. (Things relating to it certainly are.) This is your opinion, not consensus. RickK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Schools on en: (was Do Imisunderstand Wikipedia
by Rick 19 May '05

19 May '05

--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com> wrote: > Non-notability has been rejected as a criterion for > deletion. By some. There is no consensus on this issue. RickK Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Schools on en: (was DoImisunderstand Wikipedia
by Rick 19 May '05

19 May '05

--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com> wrote: > "Wikipedia is not a collection of ideas, concepts, > institutions and places > I haven't heard of or don't think are significant", > perhaps? :) Yet again a straw man and an un-Wiki attack on the motives of VfD nominators. RickK __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

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Re: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)
by Rick 19 May '05

19 May '05

I have reported this guy to abuse(a)fuse.net as a spammer. RickK --- David 'DJ' Hedley <spyders(a)btinternet.com> wrote: > I trust this was wrongly authorised? :p > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <bbarron(a)fuse.net> > To: <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:04 PM > Subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject) > > > > would like to help as much as possible > > > > Hi i am Pastor Rev.Bill Barron and i am running > for the city of cincinnati > council. i am a goodman who wants to bring peace > and harmony to are city.i > have help campaign for others an i am very hands > on,and yes more > jobs.volunteers&donations are in need > call(513)621-2349.campaign hats&bumper > stickers are $15.00&$4.00 sign of a cross on bumper > stickers,to > represent!(smile)send checks or money orders to;Bil > Barron for city council > 609 walnut st.suite#1016 cincinnati,ohio > 45202.seriously i am looking for > business parters to make our own money."only ask if > you have money to > invest". "new" web site. www.revbillbarron.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

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Segration of MediaWiki projects
by Chris McIntosh 19 May '05

19 May '05

My company wants to use MediaWiki for internal documentation. They would like to separate how projects are physically stored in the MediaWiki structure. For example instead of all files being listed under the root structure, can I create a new project folder for each project and have files be placed in their respective projects? Is this possible? -- Chris McIntosh

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WikiEN-l May 2005