WikiEN-l September 2004

wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org

97 participants
176 discussions

Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
by Mark Pellegrini 11 Sep '04

11 Sep '04

Pedro wrote: "Paul Vogel's editing privileges on Wikipedia are revoked for a period of one year." which to me does not mean "renewed each time he tries to edit". The ban renewal is not specifically mentioned in the decision because it applies to all Arbcom decisions. If you attempt to evade an arbcom ban, it gets renewed, period. That's what the punishment for attempting to evade a ban is. If there were no punishment for attempting to evade an arbcom ban, then there would be nothing to stop people from doing it. Effectively, it means that people who ignore the arbcom end up banning themselves indefinitely. --Mark

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Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
by Mr Paul Vogel 11 Sep '04

11 Sep '04

Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line Encyclopedia: The following neutral point of view article at Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead any readers. See below: '''Cosmotheism''' is a form of [[classical pantheism]] that identifies [[God]] with the ''cosmos'', that is, with the [[universe]] as a unified whole. ==Overview== Cosmotheism asserts that "all is within God and God is within all". It considers the nature of reality and of existence to be mutable and destined to co-evolve towards a complete "universal consciousness", or godhood. [[etymology|Etymologically]], ''Cosmotheism'' differs from 'Pan-theism' in that "pan" is [[Ancient Greek|Classical Greek]] for ''all'', while the Greek word ''cosmos'' means an orderly and harmonious universe. Cosmotheists take this as meaning the divine is tantamount to reality and consciousness, an inseparable part of an orderly, harmonious, and whole universal system. In its broadest sense, the word Cosmotheism may be considered simply as being synonymous with ''[[pantheism]]'', although not all modern pantheists would accept Cosmotheism as a synonym for their own worldview due to the historical association of Cosmotheism with a political movement, [[white separatism]], which some within the pantheist community may find objectionable. According to a Cosmotheist Web site dedicated to the late Dr.[[William Luther Pierce|William Pierce]]: :"''Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is an internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one.''" :"''What is our true human identity is we are the cosmos made self-aware and self-conscious by evolution. ''" :"''Our true human purpose is to know and to complete ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness and being.''"[http://www.cosmotheism.net/] Some claim [[Albert Einstein]] was a Cosmotheist, [http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1982/JASA3-82Seeger.html], along with [[Carl Sagan]], [[Benedict Spinoza]] and other historical figures—although there is no quoted evidence of any of these three claiming to be "cosmotheist" as such, and all could also be said to be [[Pantheist]]. ==Mordekhay Nesiyahu's Cosmotheism== In [[Israel]], Cosmotheism was described by [[Mordekhay Nesiyahu]], one of the foremost ideologists of the [[Israeli Labor Movement]] and a lecturer in its college Beit Berl in Israel. In ''Cosmotheism — Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity towards the 21st Century'', Nesiyahu proposed not to just assume the existence of God, being "prior to all that was created," but to consider God as only being a result of the development of the universe and the consciousness of all of humankind. Divinity in this particular view is inherently a human invention. The development of the divine (or what the believer would qualify as being "the revelation of the Divine") was, in Nesiyahu's opinion, both the condition for a more exalted human functioning and all that bears the fruit that comes out of it. In Nesiyahu's universalist re-imagining of a secular divinity, the universal celebration of Cosmotheism is the basis for rebuilding the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and is also a secular ethnically Jewish and a Zionist contribution to all of humankind. ==William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism== ===Origins=== In the United States, ''Cosmotheism'' sometimes refers to a religion adopted in [[1978]] by [[National Alliance]] founder and [[white separatist]] Dr. [[William Luther Pierce|William L. Pierce]]. Pierce affirms his cosmotheist belief in a speech that he once gave entitled "Our Cause": :''"All we require is that you share with us a commitment to the simple, but great, truth which I have explained to you here, that you understand that you are a part of the whole, which is the creator, that you understand that your purpose, the purpose of mankind and the purpose of every other part of creation, is the creator's purpose, that this purpose is the never-ending ascent of the path of creation, the path of life symbolized by our life rune, that you understand that this path leads ever upward toward the creator's self-realization, and that the destiny of those who follow this path is godhood."'' His interpretation of cosmotheism ([http://baldur.libertyforum.net:8079/Our_Cause.txt]) was greatly influenced by several disparate factors: interpretations of [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s play ''[[Man and Superman]]''; strains of [[German Romanticism]]; [[Charles Darwin|Darwinian]] concepts of [[natural selection]] and of survival of the fittest, mixed with the related early [[20th century]] [[eugenics|eugenic]] ideals; and [[Ernst Haeckel]]'s version of [[monism]]. ===Religion, society, and race=== The foundation of Pierce's Cosmotheism was essentially similar to classical monistic pantheism — he recognized no physical difference or separation between human and divine, between creator and created — but with a few differences.  Pierce described his form of Cosmotheism as being based on "[t]he idea of an evolutionary universe ... with an evolution toward ever higher and higher states of self-consciousness," and his political ideas were centered on racial purity and [[eugenics]] as the means of advancing the [[white race]] first towards a superhuman state, and then towards godhood. In his view, the white race represented the pinnacle of human evolution thus far and therefore should be kept genetically separate from all other races in order to achieve its destined perfection in Godhood. Pierce believed in a hierarchical society governed by what he saw as the essential principles of nature, including the survival of the fittest. In his social schema, the best-adapted genetic stock, which he believed to be the [[white race]], should remain separated from other races; and within an all-white society, the most fit individuals should lead the rest. He thought that extensive programs of "racial cleansing" and of [[eugenics]], both in Europe and in the U.S., would be necessary to achieve this socio-political program. His [[National Alliance]] was to be the political vanguard and the spiritual priesthood of this program, which was designed ultimately to bring about a "White racial redemption". His Cosmotheist Community Church, which was to be the next step of this plan, was set up in the mid-1970s, alongside Pierce's other political projects — the National Alliance, National Vanguard Books, and the weekly broadcast ''American Dissident Voices'' — all from his mountain retreat headquarters in West Virginia. ===Critical assessments=== Pierce's views have been characterized as a version of early twentieth century racial anthropology, but driven by spiritual, as well as scientific, beliefs. This area of his belief was likely influenced by his early association with [[George Lincoln Rockwell]]'s [[American Nazi Party]]. Others have noted the German Romantic roots that Pierce's ideas shared with [[Nazism]] and have observed similarities between the two ideologies: Pierce's plan for white divinity was similar to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s vision for the ''[[Master race|Herrenvolk]]''; also, his attacks against Jews as "parasites" on white society, who would prevent the white race from reaching its destined godhood by replacing the white elite with their own kind, echoed previous Nazi descriptions of Jewish traits and character. [http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf] Other criticisms have been harsher; for example, the [[Southern Poverty Law Center]] has characterized Pierce's Cosmotheism as "an unsuccessful tax dodge". (Followers of Pierce's cosmotheism call many of these characterizations erroneous, some [[National Alliance]] members attributing them to "Marxist politically-correct slander and dogmatism.") ==Related articles== *[[Classical pantheism]] *[[Creativity Movement]] *[[Eugenics]] *[[List of Pantheists]] *[[Pan-atheism]] *[[Panentheism]] *[[Pantheism]] *[[Pseudo-pantheism]] ==References== *''Cosmotheism, Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity - towards the 21st Century'' by Mordecai Nesinyahu (Poetica - Tuvi Sopher Publishing, Tel Aviv.) *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution'', by Brad Whitsel; published in ''Nova Religio'' Vol.1, No.2, April 1998. ==External links== === Mordekhay Nesiyahu's cosmotheism === *[http://members.tripod.com/~TheHOPE/mikt2.htm Nesiyahu's interpretation of Cosmotheism] ===William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism === ====Jewish-Marxist and Pan-atheist Criticism==== *[http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html ''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution''] by Brad Whitsel (''Nova Religio'') *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *[http://www.pantheist-index.net/Distortions_Aberrations/Hugenholtz.html ''A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups''] by Esther Hugenholtz (''Pantheist Index'') *[http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/p/pseudo-pantheism.html Pseudo-Pantheism] (Encyclopedia4U) ====Advocacy==== *[http://www.cosmotheism.net Cosmotheism site] **[http://bks.ark11.net/dpm.htm A Tribute to the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/thepath.shtml The Path], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onlivingthings.shtml On Living Things], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onsociety.shtml On Society] by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/affirmations.shtml An example of a Cosmotheist affirmation of belief] **[http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3482 Our Cause, A Speech on Cosmotheism by the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/102-6676005-3434513?v=glance "The Fame of a Man's Deeds"] [[Category:Pantheism]] Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately distorting and censoring any factual and accurate information there. Anyone reading here that can help to fight this censorship and this deliberate mis-representation of Cosmotheism can go to this Wikipedia website and do a search on "Cosmotheism" and can go edit and fight this biased and bigoted Jewish censorship and slander of the religion of Cosmotheism found here: http://www.cosmotheism.net Best regards, Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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RE: [WikiEN-l] Robert Brookes
by KNOTT, T 11 Sep '04

11 Sep '04

>At some point you will need to talk with "the prick" and try to get him to >come around. > >Fred I don't think you understand. People have tried to talk to him. Repeatedly. It's very difficult to keep talking to someone who insults you over and over again. He been rude to practically everyone he's spoken to. I don't think he's had a nice word to say to anyone. ~~~~

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[googlealerts-noreply@google.com: Google Alert - wikipedia]
by Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales 11 Sep '04

11 Sep '04

This is a fascinating article in many respects. It's particularly interesting that Britannica talks about our disclaimer. It's also interesting that they interviewed Larry Sanger, which would make sense in an article about the ancient history of the project, but the casua reader would get the impression from the article that Larry is still around. I talked to the reporter yesterday, and she was very enthusiastic and knowledgeable. Top quality journalist. But I suspect that some older wikipedia pages somewhere do not properly make clear Larry's role today, nor really his role in the past as a hired employee. --Jimbo ----- Forwarded message from Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply(a)google.com> ----- From: Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply(a)google.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:31:26 -0700 (PDT) To: jwales(a)bomis.com Subject: Google Alert - wikipedia A New-Age Reference Washington Post - Washington,DC,USA ... Wikipedia, a free online encyclopedia started in January 2001, has since surprised Web watchers by maturing into a popular reference site. ... <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5430-2004Sep8.html> This as it happens Google Alert is brought to you by Google... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Remove this Google Alert: http://www.google.com/alerts/remove?s=239e2e51c626dd22&hl=en Create another Google Alert: http://www.google.com/alerts?hl=en Try Google News: http://news.google.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "La nÃ¨fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org

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alleged censorship of Wikipedia
by Jens Ropers 11 Sep '04

11 Sep '04

On 11 Sep 2004, at 00:47, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote: > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:51:14 +0200 > From: Jens Ropers <ropers(a)ropersonline.com> > > On 10 Sep 2004, at 21:19, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote: > >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle(a)yahoo.com> >> >> <snip> > > Please refrain from making sweeping politico-racial generalizations. OMG. That was a massive, MASSIVE shameful blunder from me. I would like to apologize, deeply apologize to everybody for saying "politico-racial". Referring to Jews as a race -- that's a classification which was utterly abused and discredited through its use in Nazi ideology; and I would DEEPLY apologize for having made the moronic, idiotic, appalling and shameful mistake of using it unqualifiedly and unthinkingly. For the record: I utterly and totally recant the respective words (referring to Jews as a racial group). I do of course recognize that Judaism IS A RELIGION and that in a worldly context, unqualified reference to Jews as a race smacks of Nazi ideology -- something I would wish I could distance myself from as far as possible. '''The Israeli people''' are what potentially could in a worldly context be regarded as a race -- if one ''has'' to use the grossly inaccurate and dangerous term of "race". I do realize that in the context of Jewish religion, there is the notion of "the Jewish people", but that's '''in a religious context''' and doesn't excuse my idiotic labeling of Vogel's reference to "Jews" as "racial". I should have said "religio-political generalizations". With apologies to everybody, -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com

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RE: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?
by Jens Ropers 10 Sep '04

10 Sep '04

On 10 Sep 2004, at 16:52, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote: > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:25:56 +0100 (BST) > From: Matt R <matt_crypto(a)yahoo.co.uk> > > Can we put aside the specific issue of academia, for a moment, and > deal with > the more general concept of "experts"? I'd like to address one specific > instance: would you object to requiring at least one expert to review > an > article, in addition to laymen? (Let's make the non-trivial assumption > that > experts exist and are identifable by some means). Just to clarify myself: I don't have a problem with academics/academia. IMHO it's the dichotomous distinction between "experts" and "non-experts" that's at the root of the problem, not the issue whether we're talking about academics or other "experts". Traditional knowledge review works as follows: 1. A person demonstrates an ability to consistently produce non-trivial knowledge work. 2. This leads to the possibility of that person being awarded "expert" status (traditionally in the form of academic accreditation.) 3. Once expert status is attained, the person's views are valued ''more'' than the views of persons who (for whatever reason) have not also become "experts". 4. This implicit credence of "experts" is rarely ever revoked and [[appeal to authority]] arguments are frequently made. This system has the advantage (or disadvantage) that an expert rarely has to justify his/her views to "non-experts". If also has the massive disadvantage that it tends to lead to the exclusion of an enormous amount of valid input. Some "experts" ''do'' happily take on board input from all comers, but even with them, most laymen don't dare contacting them. Traditionally, it was very difficult to imagine a working alternative to the "expert/non-expert"-approach to the "authoritative knowledge"-problem. I believe we now have the tools to do things better. We don't need the dirty shortcut of recognizing (or affording anyone our own) "expert"-labels. Because everybody is an expert to some degree. All we need is a sufficiently disciplined, self-policing and workable forum of peer review. Our future review system could work as follows: We keep editing like we've always done, but going forward, we consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ the "unstable" branch. As mav and myself have proposed, we create a stable branch http://en.wikipedia.org/stable/. We form a "review club" with the following membership criteria: - A non-trivial edit history that - demonstrates constructiveness and - an ''ambition'' to work towards the NPOV. A person's supposed "knowledge level" should NOT be a criterion (see below). Membership in the review club should be open to everybody but will have to be applied for. Once the above criteria are met, membership should be granted to any comers. The review club would not edit. No editing would take place on the stable branch. The job of the review club would only be to determine whether "wiki" versions can be promoted to "stable". If an article needs editing, the review club would say so on the talk page. Review club members could edit ''in their other role of being regular contributors'', but these edits would be treated ''the same as any other contributor's edits''. The discussion in the review club should be more disciplined than in other Wikipedia fora, but here, too, no appeals to authority should be permitted. Every argument will have to stand on it's own merit. But: laymen may find it harder to convince others, because of what they don't know (not because of what accreditations they don't possess). Review club members would need to be very aware of their limits and they should clearly say when they don't feel qualified enough to make a judgment on an article. This is where the review club ''could'' also solicit outside opinions, but only if the review club ''agrees'' it lacks the relevant knowledge to do the work alone. When soliciting an outside opinion, the outside person should be able to convince '''by merit of an explanation, not by merit of their title''' (where s/he has one). Crucially, if no-one in the review club understands the explanation given by the outside person, the said input should be disregarded. This should neatly avoid the pitfalls associated with a fallacious appeal to authority ("reverse ad-hominem" ;-) . To remain workable, the review club could split into different working groups as it grows, such as: - a molecular biology group, - a car mechanics group, - a soap opera group, etc. etc. Where necessary, the groups could appoint moderators on a rotating basis (or elect them for limited terms). Here too, a moderator's main job would not be "being an expert who can overrule people", but "being a moderator who can facilitate and sum up the group's consensus". If required, the entire review club could have a "grand moderator" as well. The Wikipedia has come far. From a previous email I wrote: >> The Wikipedia will continue to be successful as long as we continue >> to attract more well-intended contributors than malicious folks. >> >> If well-meaning users make a mistake and/or persist in a >> misconception, then it's possible to have a (sometimes admittedly >> heated) discussion about it and straighten things out. Well-intended >> but erring users we can deal with and convince. Only "trolls", people >> who genuinely WANT to sabotage the system do present a real threat. >> Fortunately most people in the world are well-meaning. The fewest >> people in the world actively want to do something wrongful. >> Misguided, perhaps, but not actively trying to be wrongful. >> Misguided, we can deal with. We can convince or vote down such people >> as long as they are well-meaning. Wrongful, we have to labour >> against. Either way: in our system, the majority wins. So again, as >> long as we can attract more reasonable people than maniacs, as long >> as we can do that, we'll be successful. We have every reason to believe that the same principle would work in a review club. Because most well-meaning people will recognize their own limitations and not claim to be an "expert" of medical imaging when they really haven't got a clue. Malicious imposters will be noticed very quickly because they cannot trow the weight of a (fake or actual) title around -- and their explanations will rarely be cogent. And that's all we need. -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com

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alleged censorship of Wikipedia
by Jens Ropers 10 Sep '04

10 Sep '04

On 10 Sep 2004, at 21:19, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle(a)yahoo.com> > > It is clear to me and to anyone else that can pay > attention that Wikipedia is being censored by Jews > and Social Marxists and that their whining about the > Chinese censorship of Wikipedia is just more and > typical lying hypocrisy on your and their part. > > Best regards, > Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE > http://www.cosmotheism.net Please refrain from making sweeping politico-racial generalizations. You're putting that as if you were implying that being a follower of Jewish faith or adhering to Social-Marxist ideology was something inherently objectionable. It isn't. For the record: Judaism is a perfectly valid and time-honored religion and Social Marxism is a perfectly valid POV as far as political ideology. Not that I'm buying into your allegations that either of the two had anything to do with the disputed article. -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com

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The Whole Truths of Reality of Cosmotheism:
by Mr Paul Vogel 10 Sep '04

10 Sep '04

Mr Paul Vogel wrote: The Cosmotheist Whole Truths of Reality are always considered to be... >"a load of anti-Semitic horseshit." ...when only real "Trolls", like this Mirv, etc., ad nauseum, and are the actual ones that are actually always shoveling their ad hominem and Kosher hypocritical lies and their usual slanderous and censorious anti-Cosmotheist filth and then allowing only their own usual rubbish of Social-Marxist-PC or Jewish-Zionist Propaganda within Wikipedia. What else isn't new? "If you want to appeal your ban, take it up with those "lying hypocritical Jewish Social Marxists" on the arbitration committee;" Kind of like the Palestinians appealing to Ariel Sharon and his Likud Party to end their illegal occupation and murder of their boys and children? Thanks, but no thanks! :D All "Non-Jewish" or all "Non-Kosher" editors of Wikipedia are actually Palestinians, now, and get either banned or censored by lying hypocrites and Jewish Marxist-PC bigots, like this Mirv, here. "...ranting on this list will only get you banned from here as well." Only "my ranting", of course, may get me banned from here, as well, whereas, some "Jewish" or "Marxist" pigs can "rant" here all they like, and without any fear of their being "banned from here, as well", whatsoever. This is exactly the same sort of Social-Marxist "Jewstice" or "Dis-topia" that Eric Blair, aka George Orwell in "Animal Farm" and "1984" had tried to warn us all about after "our winning" the Second World War and this Marxist-Stalinists Tyranny, is now, the NEW WORLD ORDER installed all throughout the formerly-FREE WESTERN WORLD. "I for one am not going to feed this troll any further." False promises, promises, from an actual Troll, Mirv. "With contempt, C. Podles ([[en:User:Mirv]])" With the real hope of Kalki's return, Mirv. :D Here is to the only deserving 144,000! :D Best regards, Paul Vogel aka NEEDLE http://www.cosmotheism.net _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool

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Re: [WikiEN-l] ABOUT LATITUDE.
by Jens Ropers 10 Sep '04

10 Sep '04

On 10 Sep 2004, at 01:23, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote: > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:02:25 -0600 > From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)ctelco.net> > > Interestingly, Britain and Ireland are considered part of Europe, even > Iceland is, while Cuba is not considered part of North America. > > Fred Is that so? Well... four words: United States foreign politics ;-) - Jens

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Wikipedia meetup 2005
by Elisabeth Bauer 10 Sep '04

10 Sep '04

Hello, At ars electronica in Linz Jimbo and I had the idea to hold a Wikipedia meetup next summer. Since people from as many wikimedia projects as possible should be able to participate we decided on Europe as the best place to do this, and we'll be trying to get funding for wikipedians from other continents to join in the fun. Now, the exact location is to be decided. There are several important criterias, like number of local wikipedians, closeness to an international airport, costs and abilities of conference facilities... The details can be found on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 Where the conference is hosted will be a community decision along the lines of the Olympic games selection: I'd like to encourage everyone to place proposals on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 with detailed information so we can choose the place which offers the most advantages. Most important are of course conference facilities and dates where they are still free. Since most conference facilities have to be booked long in advance and there will be enough organisational stuff left to do, I suggest a deadline of one month, ending 10th of october. Please translate this posting and make it public in your project so that as many wikipedians as possible have a chance to participate in the discussion and the choice. greetings, Elian

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WikiEN-l September 2004