WikiEN-l April 2004

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65 participants
130 discussions

Hard-ban User:TDC right away
by Abe Sokolov 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

User:TDC needs to be hard banned right away. Recently, a well respected user called TDC an "obnoxious, immature, POV-pushing, insult-spewing" user. Of course, this isn't unusual on Wikipedia. But lately TDC's behavior has gotten far more alarming than what Wikipedia usually sees. On 4/1, e.g., he posted this unforgivably offensive message on the talk page of a longtime user and admin, and earned himself a 24 hour period: Now, I know you Marxist types dont believe in an afterlife and the like, but if I were to hold a seance and channel Marx's spirit through you, do you think you would try and suck your own dick. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 04:15, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Slrubenstein&diff=3013952&o…> After the 24 hours, TDC's behavior has gotten worse. To demonstrate this, I'll avoid telling a long, drawn out story, and instead refer to the relevant links and briefly state my conclusions . Since he isn't very well known among most mailing list readers (he's been trolling only a small number of articles), the links and talk page excerpts below will allow other users to examine this problem on their own. IMO, his behavior is in league with the hard banned vandals. [[User:Kenneð]] (see <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Kenne%F0&action=history>), e.g., was banned in 8/03 for making rambling threats seemingly coming out of nowhere. TDC has been doing the same (my examples are placed below this paragraph). [[User:JoeM]] was banned for blatant POV trolling and vandalism (see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JoeM/ban>). TDC has been doing the same for months. [[User:Michael]] has been known to target specific users. Over the past week, TDC has been explicitly stating that he intends to do the same. TDC user has been given multiple chances, aside from being allowed to return after the 24 hour ban. Also on 4/1, a poll was started on [[Talk:Fascism]]. An number of other users and I were hoping that since an overwhelming consensus of users disagreed with TDC's view of the way things are (as of now, twenty users have voted no; TDC is the lone yes vote), he'd get the message and start moderating his behavior. BTW, if anyone's interested, the results below are taken from <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fascism> ([[Talk:Fascism]]). ------- ===Yes=== [[User:TDC|TDC]] 05:09, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) ===No=== #[[User:John Kenney|john]] 04:50, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 04:55, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Eloquence|—Eloquence]] 04:55, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Meelar|Meelar]] 04:56, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:AndyL|AndyL]] 05:13, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Danny|Danny]] 05:24, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) (in protest--I think voting on this is ridiculous) #[[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 05:26, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] 05:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 05:57, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Methylsoy|Methylsoy]] 06:54, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Jamesday|Jamesday]] 07:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Vardion|Vardion]] 08:51, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:172|172]] 12:39, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) (Ugh. The crap being pushed on this page grows more asinine by the day. Here's a better proposition to vote on: "Poll: Should TDC and other extreme POV pushers with strong opinions but little to no knowledge on the subject be banned from trolling this article." [[User:172|172]] 12:39, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Skatehorn|Skatehorn]] 16:49, 1 Apr 2004 (CEST) #[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:13, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 07:30, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Tillwe|till we *)]] 17:48, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC) (and agrees withh Danny) #[[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 19:27, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]] 21:11, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC) #[[User:Hauser|Hauser]] 22:10, 3 Apr 2004 (NZEST) (Bloody pathetic, then again it's kinda ironic the fact that I am complaining about a emocratic insitution in a discussion about Fascism :P) ------- However, his behavior has dramatically worsened. In his 04:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) edit to [[Talk:Karl Marx]], he started harassing a respected user because of his academic background. TDC wrote: BTW, you are a bunch of soft-minded artsy morons, thats why you choose professions, like sociology, that have no demand or real value in society. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 04:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Karl_Marx&diff=3005125&oldi…> As an aside, hating "sociologists" seems to be among his array of weird quirks. Roughly a month and a half earlier, he made roughly the same "sociologist" crack about me: "secondly what productive activity could a sociologist actually engage in? I mean, seriously?" <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Sandinista&diff=2383169&old…> BTW, just to give you an idea about how clueless the guy is, neither of us two "soft-minded artsy morons" are sociologists. My field is history. The same for the other user. Later, Stevertigo and Fred Bauder placed TDC on the 24 hour ban, hoping that this would give him some time to cool off. The discussion of the ban is pasted below: Now, I know you Marxist types dont believe in an afterlife and the like, but if I were to hold a seance and channel Marx's spirit through you, do you think you would try and suck your own dick. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 04:15, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) For your information, this sort of remark is unacceptable. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 19:51, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC) I agree - a day or two ban is in order. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]][[User_talk:Stevertigo|(talk)]] 21:35, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) UPDATE!: Ban will last 24 hours. Please use this free time to meditate on your behaviour, and read up on your [[Wikipedia:Civility|wikicivics]]. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]][[User_talk:Stevertigo|(talk)]] 21:46, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) See <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:TDC&dummy=1&diff=30306…> ([[User talk:TDC]]) TDC has been meditating on his behavior since then. Unfortunately, he's been drawing far worse conclusions. I wrote on my talk page: I will go on the Marx page 10 times a day to undo any vandalsim you cause. Please dont make me write a script to do this automaticly. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 06:09, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:172&diff=0&oldid=30496…> Then, on his user page, he was even more charming. Here he effectively proclaims that he's a Sadist: 172, if that is indeed your ''real'' name, believe you me that you have met in TDC the biggest most stubborn prick on the face of planet earth, and I will not stop until your stomach churns with bile at the site of [TDC]. I dont feel that this is a waste of time, I get a great deal of satisfaction out of this.[[User:TDC|TDC]] 06:02, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:TDC&diff=0&oldid=30495…> TDC has contributed nothing to WP other than threats, insults, and the need to protect articles with which he's obsessed. After seeing the recent comments, I'm not sure if this guy isn't enough of a nutcase to start personally tracking down users whom he deems his enemies. He ought to be put on a hard ban right away, while he's accumulated only a small number of targets for venting his frustrations (anger, paranoia, whatever?). The longer he's on Wiki, the more users he'll start harassing and threatening. So, it's best to put him on a hard ban before this gets out of hand. -[[User:172]] _________________________________________________________________ Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2 months! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave…

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Hard-ban User:TDC right away
by Abe Sokolov 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

Fred, Stop it with the ad hominems once and for all. I usually look the other way when you periodically come out of nowhere with crackpot statements associating me with Mao and Stalin on the mailing list. But I'm getting sick of being misrepresenting so often. I'm not a member of any Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Trotskyite, Maoist, Titoist, Enverist, etc., etc. party, and I've stated so repeatedly. Not to rehash controversies from the 2003 [[Communist state]] edit war, but my opposition to your edits, along with Jtdirl's, had nothing to do with POV but with concerns about the relevance of the content that you'd wanted to add. I know that once you're stuck on an idea, despite its scant relationship to reality, you're not changing your mind. However, at least as a courtesy, could you stop writing crap accusing me of "systematic point of view editing [that] parrots the evasions of Marxist totalitarianism" without any evidence or basis? At least try not to be such a curmudgeon. -[[User:172]] _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/

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Hard-ban User:TDC right away
by Abe Sokolov 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

A typo in my last posting made things pretty confusing. I meant to say that TDC wrote the following on my talk page, not me: I will go on the Marx page 10 times a day to undo any vandalsim you cause. Please dont make me write a script to do this automaticly. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 06:09, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:172&diff=0&oldid=30496…> -[[User:172]] _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp

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allow people to have two watchlists - done!
by Martin Harper 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

> allow people to have two watchlists Create a page in your user space. Add links to that page to pages you want to watch carefully. Click "Related changes" to view your new secondary watchlist. I hope this helps. Now you have this power, I look forward to a reduction in your frequency of edit warring. -Martin

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edit wars
by A 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

It may be easy to criticize me, because I communicate about the edit wars I am in. However, I think your criticism would be far more useful if directed at those who refuse to communicate. Never in my history here at the wikipedia, never has someone replaced text of mine that was deleted -- thats either because my text isn't any good or because its really not that easy to tell that an edit conflict occurred (unless, of course, you revert and revert until it becomes very apparent that an edit war is occurring). In any case, if you want to decrease the number of edit wars -- allow people to have two watchlists, so they can use one watchlist solely to watch articles at which they are involved in an "edit crisis". This will allow people the luxury of not having to worry that they will forget about the incident. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/

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From Tannin, blocked a signed-in user
by Theresa Robinson 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

Tannin says he has difficulty posting to the mailing list and I offered to do so on his behalf. He blocked a signed-in-user, Lord Kenneth, on his own initiative. There is currently a quickpoll in order to validate the block. Lord Kenneth is alleged to have vandalized of a number of pages, including user pages, cleanup, and pages in the main namespace. moink

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how to keep me from edit warring as much
by A 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

One really good way to keep me from so much reverting (note, my reverts are always reverts of reverts -- I don't delete other people's test (I NPOV it instead); however, when people delete my text I do tend to revert their revert) But, a good way to slow my reverting down, is to give me a second watchlist. I use one watchlist so I can keep an idea of whats going on with articles I have edited (so that I can revert people who revert me); if I had a second watchlist, then I could deliberately watch articles at which someone was reverting me -- this would allow me to not have to worry about forgetting that so-and-so deleted my text. If I didn't have to worry about the deleting being forgotten, then I might be more willing to wait a day or two and see if the reverter gets around to explaining themselves. I also think it should become a rule that whenever someone deletes a chunk of text, that they include some sort of notification in the edit summary. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/

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Deliberate chain yanking
by Jimmy Wales 04 Apr '04

04 Apr '04

[Note: At the bottom of this is an important "blessing" by me of the quickpoll methodology. I put this note up here after I was done because I realized that part was pretty important and I don't want people to miss it.] An edit by 'Michael33': http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&dummy=1&di… >In this case we chose the name of a hard-banned user >([[User:Michael|Michael]]) hoping to make you believe >[[User:Michael3|Michael3]] was his sock puppet. An edit by 'Bird': http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Bird&dummy=1&diff=0&ol… >Your distrust for this username is a product of efforts by the >creator of this username to undermine your trust. I have manipulated >other user names to demonstrate continued niave trust among this >juvenile group. But in both cases, it may be instructive to read the whole thing. I just wanted to express my firm public opinion, Speaking Officially and all that, that both of these admissions are sufficient in and of themselves to justify a hard ban. In both cases, the confession is to actual trolling, i.e. misrepresenting oneself in order to get a reaction from people. The mental pathology of some people is astounding. Wikipedia works because such people are rare. But they do exist. I sit here in amazement at a person who comes to my user_talk page to ask for action against a sysop for banning someone while *at the same time* admitting to having been trolling for the ban in the first place. -- I fully approve of and authorize the use of QuickPolls to authorize a ban, as per the policy on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Quickpolls_policy. This policy gives teeth to the "three revert guideline" but also provides for a good mechanism for community feedback and control over the process. I added "a signed in user confesses to deliberate trolling" but if for some reason that's pushing it too far, I didn't mean for that to be Policy From On High, just something that I think is a good idea. The biggest problem I see with the mediation/arbitration paradigm is that while it is fair and extremely respectful of due process, it's just very very slow, and some people who ought to be banned end up driving us bonkers for awhile. Temporary banning, with community oversight, is a good interim measure. --Jimbo

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IPA pronounciation Unicode symbols, old browsers and Wikipedia
by David Gerard 03 Apr '04

03 Apr '04

Please read [[Fucking, Austria]] and [[Talk:Fucking, Austria]]. There's considerable discussion concerning IPA pronounciation symbols being unreadable in a stock install of Internet Explorer. Is there any policy or relevant past discussion on the matter? We make many concessions to aging browsers on Wikipedia, but these are perfectly legitimate Unicode characters we're talking about here ... - d.

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Uncle Ed reads Irismeister the riot act
by Poor, Edmund W 03 Apr '04

03 Apr '04

I posted the following on requests for review of admin actions. -- Ed Poor ---- Iris, shut up and get back to work! You are wasting everyone's time. Either help us to write accurate NPOV articles, or leave. I don't give a rat's ass about whether natural health or iridology or zone manipulation are true or not. Just make your case for them, and leave it for the reader to decide. People have bent over backwards to accomodate you, mostly out of a pure concern for fairness and justice. You have eroded all the good will left in my body. Any more crap out of you, and I will "take steps". Better listen up good, because I'm one the oldest "old hands" around here and I know how to work the system. Don't get me riled up against you, or I will force you out!! (A word to the wise is sufficient.) --Uncle Ed 14:14, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_review_of_admin_acti ons ---- Sorry if I overdid it, but this business of AssumeGoodFaith can only be taken so far. I have no more patience left for his brand of nonsense. Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed Bureaucrat, Developer, Rabble-rousing Demogogue

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WikiEN-l April 2004