Anthere wrote:
>Hum...this is the second time that a wikipedian
>appears to have doubts on my morality in 24 hours.
>I *think* it would be nice between wikipedians to
>avoid this type of statement and recognise we are
>different, and might actually not share the same
>morality. Moral rules are personal issues.
Agreed - This was based on the presumption that you
disagreed with the handing over of the death threat
person's IP and was made before I realized Brion had
already given-out this information. As I stated in my
private email to you I realized after making the post
that this wasn't your intention - you were concerned
with the general policy of allowing sysops the ability
to see logged-in user's IP numbers.
BTW, when I say "policy" while posting to WikiEN-l I
usually mean policy for en.wiki. There does seem to be
consensus for allowing sysops to see the IP numbers of
logged-in users on en.wiki but there obviously is no
consensus for this to be a global policy. This feature
could be turned-off by default and decided on a
language-by-language basis as far as I'm concerned. On
en.wiki at least, there are enough sysops and enough
people watching the sysops to ensure proper checks and
balances. Jimbo is also fluent in English so it is
easy for him to investigate alleged abuses.
--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 29]]
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On Wednesday 02 April 2003 08:39 pm, anthere wrote:
> Oh ! And since when *exactly* was it a consensus that
> sysops would be allowed to see other people ip please
> ? Enlighten me on that, 'cause I have no memory of
> having ever since a consensus about that.
With the old version of the software that was in operation when I started
yarns ago /everybody/ could view the IP of /anybody/ with mouse over text.
The idea of allowing Admins have this long-lost ability arose for two
reasons; 1) the so-called MIT-vandal was trashing en.wiki for 6 hours by
creating dozens of different usernames 2) there was a suicide note placed on
en.wiki that turned out to be the real thing. Luckily Jimbo just happened to
find out about the MIT vandal and was able to find out the guys IPs and block
them (it was on a Saturday morning and Jimbo hardly never checks his
Wikipedia email or RC on Saturday morning). Very luckily the suicide note was
submitted by an anon user so regular users were able to find out which
college and computer lab the the submitter was writing from and this
information was passed onto the police (the person was hospitalized and
placed on suicide watch). But what if that person had created a login and
there was´nt´t any developer around to find out the IP address?
> Was it discussed in one of this remote places on a
> talk page on the en wiki ? It sounds as if it was a
> consensus essentially reached by you.
Is there is reason why you are being so insulting? Have I personally offended
you in some way? If I have then I´m sorry.
This has been discussed before. Most recent discussion;
On Wikipedia-l
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2003-February/008954.html
On WikiEN-l
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001242.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001034.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001043.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001050.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001099.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001100.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001030.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001037.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001164.html
And on WikiTech-l
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-February/002625.htmlhttp://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-February/002655.html
There was even more discussion on this in the Wikipedia-l archives even
further in the past but I don´t feel like looking for it.
> As far as I am concerned, I consider it a *very*
> dangerous breach on people privacy and freedom.
Since when has there been privacy on the Internet?
> Through IPs, it is possible to find people real names,
> and I strongly object to this made possible.
No - this is incorrect. With personally assigned IPs you can tell which ISP
the person is using and guess which city a person is writing from. Any
information beyond that has can only be obtained from the ISP (who are not at
all likely to give out that information). Information on public computers and
school computer lab computers is much easier to obtain though.
>I see not
> why you - as a sysop - would be given the right to
> know who I am.
Again - why are you taking this so personally and taking it out on me? Am I
some type of criminal? If I have done something so terribly wrong then please
tell me about it so that I don´t do it again.
>Sysop are there to help wikipedia, not
> to have power on people. There is an important notion
> in freedom, it is that everyone share the same rights.
> And giving denonciation abilities over the physical
> bodies of people while others lower their heads more
> and more in fear of having the cops called on them for
> any reason that a sysop would consider good enough to
> launch an attack, is not exactly what I would call a
> collaborative encyclopedia.
What? So you think it is OK for people to make death threats and not have the
cops called on them? That type of morality seems very odd to me. Just because
people would have tools doesn´t necessarily mean they will use them in bad
ways. Knives are very useful things to have, for example, but they can be
deadly if they are placed in the hands of a psychopath. Do you think that
some sysops are psychopaths that would abuse otherwise useful tools? Do you
really have such a low opinion of me and other people who are also sysops? If
we can´t trust our sysops then we might as well forget the project
alltogether.
>....
> The sysop role is to protect wikipedia against
> unacceptable aggression. This is not the role of a
> sysop to run after the people. Denonciation is not the
> role of a sysop. Read again what a sysop is.
Well I am an Admin and I battled the MIT vandal for 4 hours trying to protect
Wikipedia. If I had the ability to view this person´s IP then I could have
banned it very early on (several people got mad at me for not banning the IP
- but I was as helpless as they were). And we are also talking about a death
threat - don´t you think that it is important to report this to the police?
Isn´t protecting the lives of our contributers also important?
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 25]]
I'm with Mav on this one. The Wikipedia has no obligation to guarantee the anonymity of people who make violent threats.
I daresay it's more obliged to protect the threatened party than the threatener. If not, then consider this my final resignation notice. I'm getting *really* sick of the nonsense.
Ed Poor
On Wednesday 02 April 2003 08:39 pm, wikien-l-request(a)wikipedia.org wrote:
> > You misunderstood Brion. He was referring to Michael's threats, not to
> > determining the IP address (which he posted).
>
> Quite right. I'm not sure how mav made that interpretation, particularly
> as I followed the statement WITH THE IP ADDRESS!
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Whops! I´m very sorry about that Brion (like I said I´m pretty darn dense
sometimes, er, often). I get posts in plain text format or I read the
archives (which are also plain text) so at the end of many people´s emails
there is a whole bunch of unreadable HTML insanity. So to cope I mentally
block this out this. So when I saw:
|The post:
|http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=3DTalk:Crass&diff=3D793666&oldi=
|d=3D793523
|
|IP address from logs:
|64.12.96.205 - - [01/Apr/2003:01:05:27 +0000]
|"POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=3DTalk:Crass&action=3Dsubmit HTTP/1.1" 302 5
|"http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=3DTalk:Crass&action=3Dedit"
|"Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; AOL 7.0; Windows NT 5.0)"
|
|(Timestamps in logs are in UTC.)
|
|The e-mail address set in the account is Weezer76(a)aol.com (though it
|should be pointed out we make no attempt to verify e-mail addresses, and
|cannot guarantee that this is the actual address of the person or even
|if it is a valid address; AOL should be able to look into it, I imagine
|their web proxies keep logs which can be traced to particular users.)
|
|-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
|
|--=-jKqeSzfRNXI6rxo1ZJ9/
|Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc
|Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part
|
|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
|Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
|
|iD8DBQA+ie2QxVlOmwh1xjgRAvEEAJ4ibJCF0vRUw+hYXaySZ4m0f906rwCgi7ho
|xzxdJ/5xBdEGJLfbmG7zDLc=
|=WmTb
|-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
|--=-jKqeSzfRNXI6rxo1ZJ9/--
as a block of text I blocked that out thinking it was part of the normal HTML
mess that follows most emails.
I also took this sentence:
|That's certainly highly inappropriate on Wikipedia
as an /answer/ to my question ´´Could one of the developers get this creep's
IP so that Zoe can call the cops?´´
Which I interpreted as; You did not think it was appropriate to give out that
information.
Please forgive my idiocy and rudeness for not reading your post carefully
before responding (I did this while at work and with a deadline hanging over
my head so that combinded with the nature of the post prompted me to send a
quick reply - that still isn´t an excuse though).
Again, I´m sorry. :-)
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 26]]
User 208.63.114.185 just extensively vandalized the "white
oak" page and I just reverted it. He not only vandalized it
once, but four successive times. This user is obviously a
malicious jerk, and I strongly suggest banning him.
--
John Knouse
jaknouse(a)frognet.net
www.jaknouse.athens.oh.us
+1.740.589.4575
PO Box 1196, Athens, OH 45701-1196
Author - F. P. Jones
English - Experience is that marvelous thing that enables
you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
French - L'exprience est cette chose merveilleuse qui te
permet de reconnatre une erreur quand tu es en train de
la commettre .
Quote supplied courtesy of Verba Volant at:
http://www.logos.it/owa-l/press.rol_ml.verbavolant1?lang=en
>The other other thing we need, IMNSHO, is a pair of pages like
>Special:Recentchanges and Special:Newpages, but that only show the ones
>done by anon IP people. I'd find that mighty handy for keeping the patent
>nonsense under control.
I suggested something similar to that on Sourceforge quite some time ago,
but I never heard anything more about it.
-- Tim Starling
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
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Okay, it took me a day and a half to get around to it, but I
locked both of Weezer's user accounts.
Ed Poor
P.S. I hate doing this. I guess no one else likes doing it,
either, which is why I generally wind up being the one who runs
the "update queries" to enforce the bans.
P.P.S. Does a hangman walk home whistling, afterward? (Right now, I have a headache...)
"Let a thousand flowers bloom."
We have to get rid of this mental distinction between
"wooden puppets" and "real people". There is no Blue
Fairy to wave her magic wand and reward Pinocchio for
all his good deeds.
Anyone who's been around long enough to leave a track
record as a halfway savvy contributor with a genuine
desire to write serious articles -- SHOULD, AS A MATTER
OF COURSE, be able to use the advanced features like
article deletion and IP blocking.
Ed Poor
> Message: 8
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] 172--what happened
> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:48:15 -0500
> From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor(a)abc.com>
> To: <wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org>
> Reply-To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org
>
> Stop grumbling and request sysop rights! They're yours for the asking, you
know :-)
>
i'm flattered by your suggestion but wasn't really 'grumbling', just making
the point that it's important that sysops are always SEEN to be above
reproach in matters such as these,
Cheers Graham (quercus robur)