WikiEN-l February 2003

wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org

57 participants
159 discussions

Asimov-still POV
by Bridget 14 Feb '03

14 Feb '03

Jimbo wrote me an email: I think this one basically screwed your chances of being allowed back in, ever. Why don't you just give up and go away now? ---- Excuse me? I don't see how it is inappropriate to note that the statement should be attributed to a source. You asked for my opinion and you got it. If I had advocated adding to every presidents page: George Washington is viewed by many to be the best president. Abraham Lincoln is viewed by many to be the best president etcetc Bush is viewed by many to be the best president. It would be a bit redundant, no? As you said, "We could say the same thing in a number of articles, and it would be equally uncontroversially true in all of them." Does that merit inclusion in the article? Should we state that Iowa is the most beautiful state (to many), as is Georgia, Wisconsin, Louisiana, California, Texas, and New York? Should we go on to note that Pink Floyd is considered (by many) to be the best band, as is KISS and System of a Down. Should we note that the Blues Brothers is the best movie (as viewed by many) as is Aliens and Chicago? "Erwin Rommel is considered by many to be the greatest general of modern times." hardly seems to be informative. Especially when the reader will find the same statement at the page for every single famous general. I do not see why you are taking offense at my suggestion that a source be accredited whenever a pov statement is being made. I myself was earlier criticized for saying "Many people believe such and such" as somebody wanted to know WHO these many people are. Now that I agree with the earlier wikipedia consensus I am confronted by yet another contradictary wikipedia consensus. I do not see how it is a "troublesome" or {trollish" or "vindicative" or "immature" for me to try and discuss this with you. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

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Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #140 - 7 msgs
by Jesse Alter 14 Feb '03

14 Feb '03

Does the Wikipedia have an annual print edition, or something similar? I am assuming that it almost definately does not. The reason I ask is that a History professor would not allow me to cite the Wikipedia on the grounds that there was no print edition available, grouping it right in with fobidden Geocities sites.

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OFFLIST (was: The Bewildering Stories Quote)
by Poor, Edmund W 14 Feb '03

14 Feb '03

Lir, Please stop discussing Asimov on the mailing list. You have bigger fish to fry, and besides issues like whose version is more NPOV are best addressed in the Talk pages -- not on the mailing list. If I were a Moderator of the mailing list, I wouldn't even have let the message below be distributed. C'mon, work with me here, buddy. Uncle Ed -----Original Message----- From: Bridget [name omitted for privacy reasons] [mailto:lapollutionestsimauvaise@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 6:40 AM To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] The Bewildering Stories Quote Although I disagree with stating that many people feel Nightfall is the bestest sci-fi short story ever (as it leads to a ridiculous degree of redundancy where every article will assert its importance and popularity) I do think the quote should more or less remain, although perhaps it should be somewhat modified given the above-mentioned re-quoting: Asimov met editor Frederik Pohl, who discussed Asimov's rejections and > later printed a number of stories in Astonishing Stories and > Super-Science Stories (Clute and Edwards 56; Asimov, "Letters" 12). > These stories led to the publication of some of the most famous > science-fiction stories of all time: the positronic robot stories, the Foundation stories, and "Nightfall." Certainly there is no need to restate the whole paragraph, but note that the robot stories are ALL short stories, with Nightfall being a standalone of note. I would rewrite the relevant section as so: Asimov began contributing stories to science fiction magazines in 1939 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939> ; his short story " <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Nightfall&action=edit> Nightfall" ( 1941 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941> ) is described in Bewildering Stories, issue 8, as one of "the most famous science-fiction stories of all time" <http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue8/asimov.html> [1], along with his robot stories. The robot <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot> stories, many of which were collected in I, Robot <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%2C_Robot> ( 1950 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950> ), promulgated a set of ethical rules for intelligent machines (see Three Laws Of <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_Of_Robotics> Robotics), an idea which greatly influenced other writers and thinkers. One such short story, <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=The_Bicentennial_Man_(short_sto…> The Bicentennial Man has been made into a movie. In 1942 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942> he began the Foundation stories, later collected in the Foundation <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_Trilogy> Trilogy: Foundation <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation> ( 1951 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951> ), <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Foundation_and_Empire&action=ed…> Foundation and Empire ( 1952 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952> ), and <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Second_Foundation&action=edit> Second Foundation ( 1953 <http://www!.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953> ), which recount the collapse and rebirth of an interstellar empire. Years later, he continued the series with Foundation's <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation%27s_Edge> Edge ( 1982 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982> ) and Foundation and <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_and_Earth> Earth ( 1986 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986> ) and then wrote the prequels, Prelude to <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelude_to_Foundation> Foundation ( 1988 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988> ) and ! <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Forward_the_Foundation&action=e…> Forward the Foundation ( 1992 <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992> ). He also wrote a spoof science article The <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiotimoline> Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline in 1948 which he feared would affect the obtaining of his degree. My version, no longer refers to the empire of foundations as being vast (as certainly there have ben sci-fi empires in comparison to which this one was small and insignificant) nor does it refer to Foundations as Asimov's most famous work. (Which begs the question of whether Nightfall or Foundations is more famous and popular) It also fails to note that Robin Williams was the star of Bicentennial Man, as that seems to be information which belongs on the page for Bicentennial Man, and is hardly directly relevent to the topic at hand. My version also mentions the word "robots" a little less and does not note that the effects of the Rules of Robotics were mostly limited to people writing in the same field as Isaac Asimov, that being somewhat obvious. My version also does not describe the empire of Foundations as being "futuristic", as talk of an interstellar empire and science fiction is inherently futuristic. Even Star Wars, despite being technically in the past, is still s! o clearly futuristic that to mention it is over-stating and redundant. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! <http://rd.yahoo.com/O=1/I=brandr/vday03/text/flow/*http://shopping.yahoo.co…> Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

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The Bewildering Stories Quote
by Bridget 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Although I disagree with stating that many people feel Nightfall is the bestest sci-fi short story ever (as it leads to a ridiculous degree of redundancy where every article will assert its importance and popularity) I do think the quote should more or less remain, although perhaps it should be somewhat modified given the above-mentioned re-quoting: Asimov met editor Frederik Pohl, who discussed Asimov's rejections and > later printed a number of stories in Astonishing Stories and > Super-Science Stories (Clute and Edwards 56; Asimov, "Letters" 12). > These stories led to the publication of some of the most famous > science-fiction stories of all time: the positronic robot stories, the Foundation stories, and "Nightfall." Certainly there is no need to restate the whole paragraph, but note that the robot stories are ALL short stories, with Nightfall being a standalone of note. I would rewrite the relevant section as so: Asimov began contributing stories to science fiction magazines in 1939; his short story "Nightfall" (1941) is described in Bewildering Stories, issue 8, as one of "the most famous science-fiction stories of all time" [1], along with his robot stories. The robot stories, many of which were collected in I, Robot (1950), promulgated a set of ethical rules for intelligent machines (see Three Laws Of Robotics), an idea which greatly influenced other writers and thinkers. One such short story, The Bicentennial Man has been made into a movie. In 1942 he began the Foundation stories, later collected in the Foundation Trilogy: Foundation (1951), Foundation and Empire (1952), and Second Foundation (1953), which recount the collapse and rebirth of an interstellar empire. Years later, he continued the series with Foundation's Edge (1982) and Foundation and Earth (1986) and then wrote the prequels, Prelude to Foundation (1988) and Forward the Foundation (1992). He also wrote a spoof science article The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline in 1948 which he feared would affect the obtaining of his degree. My version, no longer refers to the empire of foundations as being vast (as certainly there have ben sci-fi empires in comparison to which this one was small and insignificant) nor does it refer to Foundations as Asimov's most famous work. (Which begs the question of whether Nightfall or Foundations is more famous and popular) It also fails to note that Robin Williams was the star of Bicentennial Man, as that seems to be information which belongs on the page for Bicentennial Man, and is hardly directly relevent to the topic at hand. My version also mentions the word "robots" a little less and does not note that the effects of the Rules of Robotics were mostly limited to people writing in the same field as Isaac Asimov, that being somewhat obvious. My version also does not describe the empire of Foundations as being "futuristic", as talk of an interstellar empire and science fiction is inherently futuristic. Even Star Wars, despite being technically in the past, is still so clearly futuristic that to mention it is over-stating and redundant. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

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Four Concertos
by Bridget 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Penned in 1723 they remain among the most popular concertos in all music is something I feel is POV Penned in 1723 they remain popular is something I feel needs improvement. After all, everything by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc. is also quite popular. However, Im sure the reader would be interested to know that the music is still popular amongst symphonies (or on CDs or something) in which case it should be quite easy to "flesh the statement out", perhaps with a POV from a famous conductor, a discussion of attendance rates at such and such an event, or the like. I would rewrite the intro as so: The Four Seasons (Ital: Il quattro stagione) is the name given to four violin concertos (Opus 8, # 1-4) written, in 1723, by Antonio Vivaldi. The concertos, which are still played by modern musicians, are named after the seasons: "Spring", "Summer", "Autumn", and "Winter". Vivaldi, via his music, attempted to represent the "mood" or "essence" of these seaons. For example, one might view "Winter" as being dark and somber, whilst "Summer" might remind one of chirping birds and buzzing flies. This being opposed to: The Four Seasons (Il quattro stagione in the original Italian) is the name given to the four violin concertos by Antonio Vivaldi, Opus 8, No. 1-4. Penned in 1723, they remain among the most popular concertos in all music. Each of The Four Seasons are named after a season: "Spring", "Summer", "Autumn", and "Winter". The texture of each movement is varied, resembling its respective season. For example, "Winter" is dark and somber, whereas "Summer" has sounds reminiscent of birds chirping and flies buzzing. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

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Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #139 - 15 msgs
by Jesse Alter 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Either Lir is a troll/kook who feels that his/her vandalism/views must be posted on the Wikipedia to such a degree that he is speaking privately to people, promising to abide by the rules, even helping research an article I'd like to contribute to just to betray us all and be one of the bad ones who do everything that they can to make Wikipedia work... Or they're a generally nice guy, capable of being a good contributor, who started off on the wrong foot and didn't understand the rules or the spirit of Wikipedia and looked like a jackass as a result. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Users can be banned again, articles can be reverted, and vandalism never lasts long. If there's a strong sign that Lir truly has mended their evil ways, why not give 'em a shot?

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Please don't let Lir back
by Tony Wilson 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Tom wrote my own thoughts exactly: > I've got a short list of people whose presence in an article means my absence from it. > Vera Cruz and Lir are both on it. It will be watchful waiting for me, but > at the moment I am still cringing from this person's previous > incarnations. What has this person acknowledged about past behavior, > after apparently weeks of private discussion with Jimbo and now Ed > Poor, that would make anyone want to see this person back? It doesn't get much clearer than that.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Please let Lir back
by Vicki Rosenzweig 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

At 09:09 AM 2/12/03 -0500, Ed Poor wrote: >My friends, after talking privately with Lir I feel it is only fair for us >to withdraw our objections to his participation on Wikipedia. He has >agreed to be good, and that is good for all of us. > >I suppose some of us may want a sort of statement from him, or may still >want to express concerns. I ask only that you be gentle and considerate, >bearing in mind as always that "example is the best teacher". The problem here is twofold. First, Lir agreed to be good once before, and then didn't. (That's beyond the implicit agreement to be good that everyone who works on a project like this, with defined goals, is making.) Second, since this was a private discussion between Ed and Lir, I don't know what "be good" means in this case. Ed, can you elaborate? -- Vicki Rosenzweig vr(a)redbird.org http://www.redbird.org

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Sysop = Position of Power?
by wiki pedista 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Hello All, I came across in some posts with the idea that giving Zoe sysop status gave her more "power" or "authority" to deal with Lir. Forgive me if I missed something, but last time I checked the sysop was an administrative status, and we do not have power to ban registered users, and the protecting of pages is very highly discouraged, so, I do not see where that "power" could come from; unless now the title "Sysop" now has some hidden significance. And I remember also that trying to use "Sysop" as a title was discouraged a while ago (Isn't that right, Uncle Ed?). The only way that someone could be granted the power to deal with Lir and others would be investing them with a "Jimbo Walesship", and I haven't seen that happen. AstroNomer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Zoe as sysop
by Poor, Edmund W 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

Zoe has promised to be on her best behavior, and there doesn't seem to be a strong chorus of objection, so I don't see why she shouldn't be made a sysop. If I recall correctly, it's a privilege automatically granted "for the asking" anyway. Any last minute comments, before I run the "promotion" script for Zoe? Uncle Ed -----Original Message----- From: Zoe [mailto:zoecomnena@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:33 PM To: WikiEN-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation For some unfathomable reason, people want to allow Lir to come back. Why, is beyond me. He has been nothing but disruptive since he first came onto the scene. See the Talk page on [[Iowa State University]] for Lir's very first comments on Wikipedia, in which he called people who disagreed with him morons and specifically said that a dean at Iowa State was a liar for disputing a quote Lir attributed to him. It's also worth noting that Lir tried to delete the Talk page, but I've restored it so people can see just what he had to say. His next forary into collegiality was his attempt to make us believe that Christopher Columbus's sole reason for visiting America was to take slaves. We also encountered a long edit war in which Lir insisted that the article be at [[Cristobal Colon]] (with accent marks I'm not going to try to reproduce here). He then went into a crusade to rename all places and people by the names they're known in their native languages, instead of by the names they're known to English speakers, even though this is the English wikipedia. He has never made any attempts to be polite, cordial or cooperative, but insists that only his way can prevail. When he was finally banned, he went outside the Wikipedia and tried to make people believe, on his personal blog page and elsewhere, that he was banned for his politics, not for his personality and inability to cooperate with others. So then he came back as Vera Cruz, and continued his lack of cooperation. Even 172, someone who has the same sort of personality as Lir/Vera Cruz/Adam/Bridget, found him impossible to work with on the [[New Imperialism]] page, even though at first the two of them were allies against those of us who wanted to keep the page NPOV and useful. And now he claims he's repentant and won't behave in the same manner. I find it hard to believe, but for some reason, the rest of you think he's reformed. I've had a long night thinking about this. At first, I felt that if you thought it was more important to have Lir here than me, that fine, I'd leave and you could have him, and more power to you. But I've decided that was childish, and I apologize to everybody for saying that. However ... If you let Lir back, I'd like to be a sysop. I've avoided asking for the authority before, even though some people have encouraged me to do it. But I know that Lir will be as disruptive as before, and I want to be able to deal with him. I promise I will be on my best behavior, and will not act abruptly. If you grant me this authority, then I'll go along with the odd request that Lir be allowed to come back. But if he continues to disrupt, and people don't step in to get rid of him for good, then I do swear I will leave, and I'm not just blowing smoke this time. Zoe _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail <http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com> Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up <http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com> now

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WikiEN-l February 2003