Tarquin wisely analyzed Ed's trenchant observation:
->Ah, but "a woman's right to choose" makes a much
->more effective slogan than "the right of a mother
->to kill her own baby".
>it's not a "baby" until it is born.
Of course. That's why advocates of the [[partial-birth abortion]] law,
like Michael Fumento, are so outraged. They say that pulling out the
fetus, feet first, then sucking out its brains to collapse the skull, is
tantamount to murder. They reason that if the doctor pulled the head
out, the fetus would be "born" and thus a "baby" with "personhood" and
human rights.
Don't get me wrong: I have no position whatsoever on the subject; I am
just reporting the reasoning of others.
We need to *understand* the reasoning of others with whom we disagree.
In fact, when I write Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects, I
usually try to explain the POV of the side I *disagree* with first. I
get a much more easily balance article that way.
Neutrally,
Ed Poor
Ah, but "a woman's right to choose" makes a much more effective slogan
than "the right of a mother to kill her own baby".
Some people might think I'm a bit of a prick to keep
pointing this out, but a major component of shaping public
opinion is The Choice Of Words. Which would you rather
have, a segment of muscle tissue from an immature
castrated bull? Or a nice, thick, juicy steak?
Inconveniently,
Ed Poor
> an article about the /term/ "Eskimo" would be at [[Eskimo]].
An entry about the /term/ "Eskimo" should be at Wiktionary. An
enrty about the /term/ "Inuit" should be at Wiktionary. Meanwhile,
[[Eskimo]] should be an orphan redirect to [[Inuit]], where we should
have an article on the people who live in the North, with links to the
relevant Wiktionary articles.
imo, ymmv, etc
-Martin "MyRedDice" Harper
--- Andre Engels <engelsAG(a)t-online.de> wrote:
> "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149(a)yahoo.com> schrieb:
> > Jimbo wrote:
> > >Presumably, though, we should have an article
> "Eskimo"
> > >about the word, linking to "Inuit" the people?
> >
> > Yeah, why not? The only issue right now is that
> there is not enough extent
> > Wikipedia text about the term "Eskimo" to move
> from [[Inuit]] to [[Eskimo]].
> > When that changes then [[Eskimo]] can be changed
> from a redirect to an
> > article. This will require, however, some degree
> of future maintenance to
> > make sure references in other articles meaning to
> link to an article about
> > the people are changed accordingly.
>
> I disagree. In general, if we want to remain the
> idea that Wikipedia is not
> a dictionary, we should be having articles about
> 'subjects' rather than
> 'words', in my opinion.
>
> Andre Engels
[[Eskimo]] would be about the /use/ of the word and
the controversy surrounding its use (not really about
the word itself). Similar to our article [[fuck]].
--mav
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Tarquin wrote:
>Children are abducted all over the world.
Very true. That's why an article on [[children
abduction]] is a very valid topic.
>Just because the US media gave it so much coverage
>does not make it worthy of inclusion in an
>encyclopedia which should be taking the long-term
>view.
Eh? Tens of millions of people were captivated by the
story. /That/ story is thus something we should have
in Wikipedia. Should we also not have articles on
popular movies and books? In the long run what is
popular today and in the media will be obscure in
decades hence. Wikipedia is not paper so let's distill
knowledge about these things. If anything it would be
a way to gauge what was important in days past.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Fred wrote:
>Yes and there was another child in the 1950s, and the
>chicken that lived after his head was cut off, again
>from the fifties, and Bridey Murphey, etc.
>
>See:
>
>http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm
Mike the chicken definetly needs his own article!
"[Mike was] a fine specimen of a chicken except for
not having a head."
-- mav
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Eileen wrote (in part)
> Both these terms, and the misstatement of
> the time the procedure is performed, lead
> me to believe the article was mainly written
> by somebody opposed to abortion who was
> more interested in getting a subtle message
> out than actually providing honest information.
Thank you for spotting this error. I hope to make all Wikipedia articles
on abortion "neutral", in the sense of NOT getting out subtle messages
promoting or opposing any point of view.
Since I myself have no position whatsoever on abortion, I might be able
to work with you on these articles.
I'd like to see some clarification on:
* just what happens (medically speaking) during various types of
abortion
* what the law is (or soon will be) on 'partial-birth abortion'
** and what the Wikipedia should call this procedure
* the precise philosophical, ethical, moral, religious, etc. reasons why
people take the positions they do regarding abortion (pro-choice,
pro-life, etc.)
That's a whole lot, so just pick the part you're interested in...
Ed Poor
Advocate of NPOV
There are no "neutral" names for advocates for or against various
policies on abortion. I'm fairly sure our Wikipedia articles on
[[abortion]] make this clear.
I have chosen therefore to use the terminology the two main camps have
chosen for themselves, when referring to them:
* pro-choice
* pro-life
The "pro-choice" camp generally favors loosening of restrictions on
abortion.
The "pro-life" camp generally favors tightening of restrictions on
abortion.
If the above info is not already in the Wikipedia, it should be put
there.
Ed Poor
> Yeah and the article about the people would remain at [[Inuit]] while an
> article about the /term/ "Eskimo" would be at [[Eskimo]]. But only if
there
> is enough text to transfer to [[Eskimo]].
Oh, I see. I don't think there would be any problem with that. I think what
we've got at present (brief description of "Eskimo" under [[Inuit]], with
[[Eskimo]] as a redirect) is fine too.
Matt
Eileen wrote:
> I was laboring under the false impression
> that the purpose of Wikipedia was to present
> factual information in an encyclopedic form.
> The answer I received from Delerium/Mark
> makes it abundantly clear that I was mistaken
> in this evaluation.
And
> I will retain the answers I have received to
> this query as background and support of my
> position and will simply refuse in the future
> to accept any citation from Wikipedia as a
> reference to a legitimate authority but will
> put it in the same class as a letter to the
> editor in a small local newspaper.
This is precisely the sort of misunderstanding
I was hoping would be averted, if we could
convey our neutrality policy properly.
Unfortunately, after a brief encounter with
the mailing list, a person who may have
considerable influence among readers has now
dismissed this project as having any standing
as a useful reference.
What are everyone's thoughts on Eileen's
evaluation of our editorial policy on articles
relating to abortion?
Ed Poor