Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/Commons :-)
Maarten
Very happy to see this.
On 14 April 2015 at 16:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/ app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
That's incredible. I'd hoped to see something like this happen, and I'm glad it did. :-)
Dan
On 14 April 2015 at 13:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/ app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Awesome!
/Downloads/
James Alexander Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
That's incredible. I'd hoped to see something like this happen, and I'm glad it did. :-)
Dan
On 14 April 2015 at 13:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/ app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
From the README:
"Wikimedia Foundation doesn't care anymore, but we do."
Maybe we can fold some of the Commons functionality into the main app as we ramp up contribution flows?
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 4:45 PM, James Alexander jalexander@wikimedia.org wrote:
Awesome!
/Downloads/
James Alexander Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
That's incredible. I'd hoped to see something like this happen, and I'm glad it did. :-)
Dan
On 14 April 2015 at 13:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/ app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/ Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
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From a user behavior perspective, selecting lead images and uploading
images from nearby are very real opportunities that we want to bring into native apps. Its a matter of having all the questions answered. Our experience from commons will be useful, making this a V2 attempt.
Some thoughts:
- We can prevent noise (face detection, location awareness, exif data) on apps better than we did on mobile web. - Lets think of smart phones cameras as one of our key channels for increasing media content on articles. - Media plays an important role in learning, while it is a low barrier to entry and gives contributors rich immediate feedback.
Just like lead images, we have the time now to start preparing for this contribution.
Thanks Vibha
---- Vibha Bamba Senior Designer | WMF Design
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
From the README:
"Wikimedia Foundation doesn't care anymore, but we do."
Maybe we can fold some of the Commons functionality into the main app as we ramp up contribution flows?
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 4:45 PM, James Alexander <jalexander@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Awesome!
/Downloads/
James Alexander Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
That's incredible. I'd hoped to see something like this happen, and I'm glad it did. :-)
Dan
On 14 April 2015 at 13:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/ app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/ Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
IIRC the plan was to introduce a framework to allow campaigns to happen similar to the wiki loves monuments app.
On 14-Apr-2015, at 6:33 pm, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
From a user behavior perspective, selecting lead images and uploading images from nearby are very real opportunities that we want to bring into native apps. Its a matter of having all the questions answered. Our experience from commons will be useful, making this a V2 attempt.
Some thoughts:
- We can prevent noise (face detection, location awareness, exif data) on apps better than we did on mobile web.
- Lets think of smart phones cameras as one of our key channels for increasing media content on articles.
- Media plays an important role in learning, while it is a low barrier to entry and gives contributors rich immediate feedback.
Just like lead images, we have the time now to start preparing for this contribution.
Thanks Vibha
Vibha Bamba Senior Designer | WMF Design
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote: From the README:
"Wikimedia Foundation doesn't care anymore, but we do."
Maybe we can fold some of the Commons functionality into the main app as we ramp up contribution flows?
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 4:45 PM, James Alexander jalexander@wikimedia.org wrote: Awesome!
/Downloads/
James Alexander Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote: That's incredible. I'd hoped to see something like this happen, and I'm glad it did. :-)
Dan
On 14 April 2015 at 13:14, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote: Hi everyone,
The old Commons mobile app got forked, see https://itunes.apple.com/de/app/commons-reloaded/id962894692?mt=8 and https://github.com/lyrk/Commons :-)
Maarten
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
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On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
And, Dan is busy working on converting many of those 6,000,000 into active editors. Right, Dan? (: By the way, is there a graph somewhere that shows the growth of Mobile Web and Mobile Apps edits and active editors?
Thanks!
Pine
*This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/
*One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.*
*—Catherine Munro*
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
On 14 April 2015 at 21:09, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
And, Dan is busy working on converting many of those 6,000,000 into active editors. Right, Dan? (:
Right now, no. The aim of the Mobile Apps Team is to grow readership.
In the long run we obviously want to get these readers we're trying to get to contribute to Wikipedia. On the mobile apps, I doubt that will be in the form of traditional editing, though. Mobile-friendly contributions like editing Wikidata descriptions and contributing lead images are a more exciting avenue, in my opinion.
By the way, is there a graph somewhere that shows the growth of Mobile Web and Mobile Apps edits and active editors?
There is editing data for mobile web and apps here: http://mobile-reportcard.wmflabs.org/#apps-graphs-tab
I should note that the repository that contains the code that generates this data hasn't been touched in a while, so I'm not certain about the accuracy of this data. That said, I took a quick look at the code, and it seems to be grabbing the right data, so I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
Dan
Ok, thanks. (: It might also be interesting to differentiate mobile editors by form factor. For example, tablet editors might be more likely to edit Wikipedia, while phone editors might be more likely to edit Wikidata.
Pine
*This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/
*One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.*
*—Catherine Munro*
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 14 April 2015 at 21:09, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
And, Dan is busy working on converting many of those 6,000,000 into active editors. Right, Dan? (:
Right now, no. The aim of the Mobile Apps Team is to grow readership.
In the long run we obviously want to get these readers we're trying to get to contribute to Wikipedia. On the mobile apps, I doubt that will be in the form of traditional editing, though. Mobile-friendly contributions like editing Wikidata descriptions and contributing lead images are a more exciting avenue, in my opinion.
By the way, is there a graph somewhere that shows the growth of Mobile Web and Mobile Apps edits and active editors?
There is editing data for mobile web and apps here: http://mobile-reportcard.wmflabs.org/#apps-graphs-tab
I should note that the repository that contains the code that generates this data hasn't been touched in a while, so I'm not certain about the accuracy of this data. That said, I took a quick look at the code, and it seems to be grabbing the right data, so I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 6:36 GMT+03:00 Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
[ Sorry, sent prematurely ]
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE is torture to me.
The only thing of this kind that is NOT torture is taking a photo with my phone and sharing it to Twitter by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
I'd love to share photos directly from my phone to Wikipedia by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
My point is, if the Wikipedia app has 6,000,000 users, why not add the functionality of sharing directly to Commons *in the Wikipedia app*?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 11:45 GMT+03:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il:
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 6:36 GMT+03:00 Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:50 AM Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
[ Sorry, sent prematurely ]
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE is torture to me.
The only thing of this kind that is NOT torture is taking a photo with my phone and sharing it to Twitter by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
I'd love to share photos directly from my phone to Wikipedia by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
My point is, if the Wikipedia app has 6,000,000 users, why not add the functionality of sharing directly to Commons *in the Wikipedia app*?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 11:45 GMT+03:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il:
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 6:36 GMT+03:00 Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Yes but we had a terrific app that worked the other way: Wherever you are standing, you could see the things that Wikipedia wants a picture of (via the WLM lists). The community voted that the 'easy uploader button" would also result in too many pictures of the same things. So it's not just selfies that people are scared of. We have HUGE trust issues onwiki everywhere across the projects. Sigh.
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@googlemail.com
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:50 AM Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
[ Sorry, sent prematurely ]
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE is torture to me.
The only thing of this kind that is NOT torture is taking a photo with my phone and sharing it to Twitter by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
I'd love to share photos directly from my phone to Wikipedia by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
My point is, if the Wikipedia app has 6,000,000 users, why not add the functionality of sharing directly to Commons *in the Wikipedia app*?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 11:45 GMT+03:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il :
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 6:36 GMT+03:00 Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
One can Assume Good Faith and extrapolate from Instagram at the same time :-)
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:42 AM Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Yes but we had a terrific app that worked the other way: Wherever you are standing, you could see the things that Wikipedia wants a picture of (via the WLM lists). The community voted that the 'easy uploader button" would also result in too many pictures of the same things. So it's not just selfies that people are scared of. We have HUGE trust issues onwiki everywhere across the projects. Sigh.
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Magnus Manske < magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:50 AM Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
[ Sorry, sent prematurely ]
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE is torture to me.
The only thing of this kind that is NOT torture is taking a photo with my phone and sharing it to Twitter by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
I'd love to share photos directly from my phone to Wikipedia by tapping on the Share icon and then on the Twitter icon.
My point is, if the Wikipedia app has 6,000,000 users, why not add the functionality of sharing directly to Commons *in the Wikipedia app*?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 11:45 GMT+03:00 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il
:
There are few things I hate more than dealing with images on computers. Even a simple thing like emailing a screenshot or adding a photo to a blogpost OR A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-04-15 6:36 GMT+03:00 Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar notnarayan@gmail.com wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
On 15.04.2015 05:36, Dan Garry wrote:
On 14 April 2015 at 16:47, Shankar <notnarayan@gmail.com mailto:notnarayan@gmail.com> wrote:
Without spending too much time can someone point me to a rationale why the app was sunset in the first place.https://www.mail-archive.com/mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg02586.html
In short, the Commons app had around 300 unique users per month. The Wikipedia app has around 6,000,000 unique users per month. Given our team size, we decided it was more strategic to devote all of our efforts to making the Wikipedia app the best it can be.
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator for hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
That why I'm still a little bit surprised/disappointed that it was not possible to allocate 100->200 KUSD to get this important piece of software working. And, although I'm happy to see new further third-party developments on that app, it seems to focus on iOS, ie. forget the "game changer".
Emmanuel
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator for
hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome repository of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to bundle it with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and millions hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too strongly, and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the Messenger (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But at this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that we can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything upload related. 1) uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing 2) uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could see it but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were an attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the commons app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir says most "muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people that use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would make you hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it. On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator for
hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome repository of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to bundle it with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and millions hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too strongly, and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the Messenger (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But at this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that we can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source
(smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are there any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows and/or moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope we're putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything upload related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could see it but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were an attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the commons app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir says most "muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people that use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would make you hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it. On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator for
hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome repository of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to bundle it with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and millions hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too strongly, and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the Messenger (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But at this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that we can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
If we open the image upload in the mobile app people will upload selfie and their other images which might not useful at all. At present there are ways to upload them via web browser and few people are doing so.
on the other hand we will get a lots of useful images if there is a option available via mobile. We can improve the existing Wikipedia articles using these images and will help a lot to create new articles.
The sad part is for defining the Commons mobile app's future we the first option was picked, "restrict all to upload images" and we all are trying to believe that it helps us a lot! though there are other good people who are building mobile apps using the same feature set :)
-- *Nasir Khan Saikat* www.nasirkhn.com
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source
(smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are there any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows and/or moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope we're putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything upload related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could see it but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were an attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the commons app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir says most "muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people that use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would make you hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it. On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator
for hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome repository of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to bundle it with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and millions hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too strongly, and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the Messenger (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But at this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that we can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will then have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who is, likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are there any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows and/or moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope we're putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1] http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything upload related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could see it but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were an attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the commons app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir says most "muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people that use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would make you hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator for hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you have only 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only thing it tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome repository of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to bundle it with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and millions hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too strongly, and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the Messenger (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But at this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons *in real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost impossible to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same pictures to Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that we can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? Didn't mobile web have around ~80% {{speedy}} and ~10% rightfully successful deletion requests?
If I understand correctly Wikigrok will not be "direct editing" on Wikidata, but rather collecting data to see if it gets a good enough validity that there is a coherence on the data before a bot does the edit. How about trying something similar for images? Mobile upload to a staging area, where other app users can tag it as useful/spam/out-of-scope and perhaps even add categories to it before the actual upload to Commons happen?
*Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali*
Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige http://wikimedia.se 0729 - 67 29 48
*Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.* Bli medlem. http://blimedlem.wikimedia.se
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will
then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader (who
is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are there any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope
we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1] http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could see
it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were an attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the commons app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir says
most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people
that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would make
you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il
wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory catalisator
for
hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the only
thing it
tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
(the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. But
at
this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit than adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons
*in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems that
we
can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an
appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Didn't mobile web have around ~80% {{speedy}} and ~10% rightfully successful deletion requests?
If I understand correctly Wikigrok will not be "direct editing" on
Wikidata, but rather collecting data to see if it gets a good enough validity that there is a coherence on the data before a bot does the edit. How about trying something similar for images? Mobile upload to a staging area, where other app users can tag it as useful/spam/out-of-scope and perhaps even add categories to it before the actual upload to Commons happen?
Yeh this is definitely an option but we don't have infrastructure for this for images...
Med vänliga hälsningar, Jan Ainali
Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 0729 - 67 29 48
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till mänsklighetens
samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.
Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will
then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader
(who is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are
there
any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope
we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere,
which
describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How
will
Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1] http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could
see it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios were
an
attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the
commons
app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir
says most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for people
that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would
make you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote:
An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory
catalisator for
hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the
only thing it
tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
(the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to a payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc.
But at
this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit
than
adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested Commons
*in
real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems
that we
can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Jan,
You make a very good point with creating a staging area and having some level of voting etc before uploads are committed. This does has a fair share of backend work + notifications, that come with it.
We have much better means of preventing failure on native apps - with face detection, exif data etc. Apps and mobile web could also benefit from user curation on the lead image.
Some ideas in this vein are: Enable uploads for nearby feature, because we know the user is actually at that location. Allow users to pick a lead image, using the existing gallery of the article.
In addition to system detecting, we need a component guiding the user as to what an appropriate image is.
Vibha
---- Vibha Bamba Senior Designer | WMF Design
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an
appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Didn't mobile web have around ~80% {{speedy}} and ~10% rightfully successful deletion requests?
If I understand correctly Wikigrok will not be "direct editing" on
Wikidata, but rather collecting data to see if it gets a good enough validity that there is a coherence on the data before a bot does the edit. How about trying something similar for images? Mobile upload to a staging area, where other app users can tag it as useful/spam/out-of-scope and perhaps even add categories to it before the actual upload to Commons happen?
Yeh this is definitely an option but we don't have infrastructure for this for images...
Med vänliga hälsningar, Jan Ainali
Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 0729 - 67 29 48
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till
mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.
Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will
then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader
(who is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane
(YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are
there
any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I
hope we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere,
which
describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How
will
Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1]
http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could
see it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios
were an
attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the
commons
app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir
says most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for
people that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would
make you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote:
> An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory
catalisator for
> hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
> 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the
only thing it
> tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
(the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to
a
payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc.
But at
this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit
than
adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
> But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested
Commons *in
> real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
> to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
> Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems
that we
can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
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This does has a fair share of backend work + notifications, that come with it.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't hack something together to prove it's worth doing—which I think it might be.
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
Jan,
You make a very good point with creating a staging area and having some level of voting etc before uploads are committed. This does has a fair share of backend work + notifications, that come with it.
We have much better means of preventing failure on native apps - with face detection, exif data etc. Apps and mobile web could also benefit from user curation on the lead image.
Some ideas in this vein are: Enable uploads for nearby feature, because we know the user is actually at that location. Allow users to pick a lead image, using the existing gallery of the article.
In addition to system detecting, we need a component guiding the user as to what an appropriate image is.
Vibha
Vibha Bamba Senior Designer | WMF Design
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an
appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Didn't mobile web have around ~80% {{speedy}} and ~10% rightfully successful deletion requests?
If I understand correctly Wikigrok will not be "direct editing" on
Wikidata, but rather collecting data to see if it gets a good enough validity that there is a coherence on the data before a bot does the edit. How about trying something similar for images? Mobile upload to a staging area, where other app users can tag it as useful/spam/out-of-scope and perhaps even add categories to it before the actual upload to Commons happen?
Yeh this is definitely an option but we don't have infrastructure for this for images...
Med vänliga hälsningar, Jan Ainali
Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 0729 - 67 29 48
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till
mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.
Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that
will then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader
(who is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane
(YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are
there
any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I
hope we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere,
which
describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How
will
Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1]
http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could
see it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios
were an
attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the
commons
app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir
says most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for
people that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would
make you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote: > > > An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory
catalisator for
> > hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
> > 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the
only thing it
> > tells you is: the app is not good enough! > > Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is. > > Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
> of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
> with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have. > > Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
> hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
> and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
> (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it
to a
> payment processing app). > > We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business
of
> sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to > popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc.
But at
> this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit
than
> adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app. > > > But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested
Commons *in
> > real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
> > to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
> > Tumblr). > > I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems
that we
> can fix, or because there is no app? > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
2015-04-15 20:51 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an
appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Did we ever try a non-skippable video? I guess if the comms team and legal team got involved such a video could be usable in a lot of other use cases too.
/Jan Ainali
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till
mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.
Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that will
then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader
(who is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane
(YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are
there
any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I
hope we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere,
which
describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How
will
Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1]
http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could
see it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios
were an
attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the
commons
app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir
says most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for
people that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would
make you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote:
> An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory
catalisator for
> hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
> 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the
only thing it
> tells you is: the app is not good enough!
Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is.
Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have.
Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
(the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it to
a
payment processing app).
We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business of sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc.
But at
this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit
than
adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app.
> But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested
Commons *in
> real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
> to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
> Tumblr).
I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems
that we
can fix, or because there is no app?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Not to silence ideas (which are great), but similar to the "image cropping in gather" thread, can we figure out what the extent of this problem is and decide whether or not we want to solve it? Designing a solution for this should involve prototyping anyway, IMO. Put another way:
- What's the ROI for more moderation tools, specific for images? - What features will be improved/enabled by these kinds of tools? - If we decide we should build something, how should we scope it? What's the ideal solution?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
2015-04-15 20:51 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an
appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time? We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Did we ever try a non-skippable video? I guess if the comms team and legal team got involved such a video could be usable in a lot of other use cases too.
/Jan Ainali
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till
mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.
Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that
will then
have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader
(who is,
likely, not aware of the Commons policies).
As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane
(YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are
there
any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows
and/or
moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I
hope we're
putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere,
which
describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many
companies
or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How
will
Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1]
http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com
wrote:
There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything
upload
related.
- uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing
- uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people
Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could
see it
but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios
were an
attempt to be helpful.
So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the
commons
app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir
says most
"muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for
people that
use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would
make you
hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it.
On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote: > > > An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory
catalisator for
> > hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you
have only
> > 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the
only thing it
> > tells you is: the app is not good enough! > > Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is. > > Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome
repository
> of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to
bundle it
> with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have. > > Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and
millions
> hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too
strongly,
> and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the
Messenger
> (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it
to a
> payment processing app). > > We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business
of
> sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - to > popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc.
But at
> this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit
than
> adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app. > > > But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested
Commons *in
> > real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost
impossible
> > to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same
pictures to
> > Tumblr). > > I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems
that we
> can fix, or because there is no app? > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
-- EN Wikipedia user page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
IRC: bgerstle
-- Jon Robson
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
If we could store images in a safe temporary place - e.g. a draft namespace or similar, I could imagine harnessing Wikigrok to crowd source the moderation problem.
Is this image a copyright violation? <link to explanation>
Yes / No / No idea.
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
Not to silence ideas (which are great), but similar to the "image cropping in gather" thread, can we figure out what the extent of this problem is and decide whether or not we want to solve it? Designing a solution for this should involve prototyping anyway, IMO. Put another way:
What's the ROI for more moderation tools, specific for images? What features will be improved/enabled by these kinds of tools? If we decide we should build something, how should we scope it? What's the ideal solution?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
2015-04-15 20:51 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On 15 Apr 2015 11:34 am, "Jan Ainali" jan.ainali@wikimedia.se wrote:
Perhaps some serious thought should go into guiding the user in what an appropriate upload is rather than just make it super easy to upload the very first time?
We tried. This is a very very hard problem. Explaining copyright law is difficult and no matter how many barriers we put in place the instant gratification of having contributed something valuable overruled that.
Did we ever try a non-skippable video? I guess if the comms team and legal team got involved such a video could be usable in a lot of other use cases too.
/Jan Ainali
Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör. Bli medlem.
2015-04-15 20:16 GMT+02:00 Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
> Because Commons is afraid of the massive influx of selfies that > will then > have to be deleted, binding admin time and upsetting the uploader > (who is, > likely, not aware of the Commons policies). > > > > As was said before in this thread, some filtering at the source > (smartphone) will have to be implemented to keep everyone sane > (YMMV).
I understand apps are focusing on readership at the moment, but are there any investigations figuring out how to scale contribution workflows and/or moderation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, and I hope we're putting earnest effort into figuring out how to mitigate or solve it.
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
+1. How we change this culture is the holy grail of Wikimedia's future. Unless we change this, our project will die imo. I was really saddened to see mobile uploads disappear from web - we had a lot of spam yes but we also had people posting never before available photos of diseases [1]. Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus. This is a bigger problem than web and apps but so far we see this more than most... I think this is something we'd have to convince Lila is a good use of our time...
[1] http://wikimedia-l.wikimedia.narkive.com/AihmOoNe/mobile-image-upload
Also, aren't we dealing with this to a certain extent with Wikidata/Wikigrok?
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote: > > There seems to be two things in conflict when dealing with anything > upload > related. > 1) uploading from a mobile phone is easy - that's a good thing > 2) uploading useful content to commons is difficult for most people > > Remember we made it super easy on web and we even limited who could > see it > but people still uploaded selfies and copyvios. IMO the copyvios > were an > attempt to be helpful. > > So I ask you what's more important - 1 or 2? The only really the > commons > app was a roaring success was the lack of its brand value as Amir > says most > "muggles" don't know what it is so this serves as a filter for > people that > use the app. Folding this functionality into a Wikipedia app would > make you > hit problem 2 and all the moderation problems associated with it. > > On 15 Apr 2015 4:54 am, "Amir E. Aharoni" > amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il > wrote: >> >> > An Android Commons mobile app is probably the mandatory >> > catalisator for >> > hundreds of millions of people to participate to Commons. If you >> > have only >> > 300 unique users a month with an official Commons app, IMO the >> > only thing it >> > tells you is: the app is not good enough! >> >> Muggles (no offense, honestly) don't know what "Commons" is. >> >> Either we need to educate the world that Commons is an awesome >> repository >> of media that can compete with Flickr and Instagram, or we need to >> bundle it >> with the Wikipedia app, which a lot of people do have. >> >> Facebook unbundled the Messenger app from the Facebook app, and >> millions >> hate it, but the same millions use it because they are hooked too >> strongly, >> and Facebook has a super-strong interest in hooking people to the >> Messenger >> (the most popular explanation is that they want to transition it >> to a >> payment processing app). >> >> We are not in the business of hooking people, but in the business >> of >> sharing knowledge. I'd actually love the first thing to happen - >> to >> popularize the Commons as a truly free competitor to Flickr, etc. >> But at >> this point in time this appears to be a much higher-hanging fruit >> than >> adding easy image sharing functionality to the Wikipedia app. >> >> > But, these numbers are not a surprise to me. I have tested >> > Commons *in >> > real conditions* a year ago in Africa and the result was: almost >> > impossible >> > to upload picture to Commons (but no problem to upload the same >> > pictures to >> > Tumblr). >> >> I'm not sure that I understood: Is it because of server problems >> that we >> can fix, or because there is no app? >> >> -- >> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי >> http://aharoni.wordpress.com >> “We're living in pieces, >> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mobile-l mailing list >> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >> > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >
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On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus.
+1 I'll add that traditional community tools help a small group of highly talented people deal with a massive flow of changes. For written, encyclopedia articles, that is probably warranted. For images, we should consider harnessing our massive army of readers. Many large websites (with non-volunteer moderators) offload the penultimate step of moderation to human readers, via flagging or "report abuse" features. We have an army of readers who would be interested in helping at a lower level-of-effort--are there any concerns with bringing them in?
[errr my email is being weird... the first time I sent this I got a "bounce" email from google saying that no mail was sent because of an error and the 2nd time it only went to Jon Katz... so if anyone got multiple copies I'm sorry... On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Jon Katz jkatz@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
Our communities reaction seems to be to push back on influxes of new edits which makes me feel we should be spending more time on moderation tools - but so far I don't see any hint that this will become a focus.
+1 I'll add that traditional community tools help a small group of highly talented people deal with a massive flow of changes. For written, encyclopedia articles, that is probably warranted. For images, we should consider harnessing our massive army of readers. Many large websites (with non-volunteer moderators) offload the penultimate step of moderation to human readers, via flagging or "report abuse" features. We have an army of readers who would be interested in helping at a lower level-of-effort--are there any concerns with bringing them in?
++
Moderations tools are something we need to think about strongly, especially since I actually think a lot of them could be hugely beneficial on mobile since many of them are more easily mappable then long form editing etc. Whenever we want to dramatically increase users acting on wiki or different types of contribution thinking about the corresponding moderation tool is not only important it's mandatory to have a successful product (of course the thinking about it 'could' be that the change is small enough not to require additional moderation). If we don't it can be one of the quickest ways to sing the product both from a community but also a practical standpoint. On a separate, but related, side it also shows the community who has to curate and patrol that we're thinking about them too.
The good news is that from what I've seen we ARE thinking about it more. Jon (K) for example had one of the earliest conversations I've ever had about moderation requirements and tools before Gather was fully developed and I've recently been having some good conversations with Danny about Flow issues. This is something we need to build more into our processes on multiple levels but I've seen a lot more attention to it recently then we used to have.
James Alexander Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
On 15.04.2015 18:05, Brian Gerstle wrote:
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
Indeed, kinda of bizarre discussion... in particular for an open movement like our. IMO, the consequence of listening too much a few Commons people who feel themself in a fortress under siege (we have a few of them in all projects). For example, the GLAMwikitoolset is kept away from Commons users based on this kind of closeminded/feared arguments.
Like written later in this thread, we simply need user friendly tool for both users and administrators. But, to get them, you need to experiment the real problems, make bug reports, wait, etc... For a few people, this seems more simple to simply block progresses...
Anyway, braking software development to keep contributor's life complicated and impairing contribution is definitely not a solution.
Emmanuel
There is no "fear" of more Commons users; there is (valid) concern that Commons will get a large influx of pictures from one-time users, and that most of these pictures may have to be deleted. We have seen this even for "pre-selected" user groups; when some Wikipedias (Portuguese for one, I vaguely remember) switched to Commons-only, it caused a clash of cultures between Wikipedia-based uploaders on "unsuitable" files and Commons admins.
While better tools would certainly not hurt, the idea of a Commons staging area has been around for a while. But I would like to extend that beyond a simple "selfie filter" for mobile uploads. It could also be used to label, organize, and prepare images before moving them to Commons proper. From Wikipedians-protograph-politicians (German Wikimedia organised this some time ago), over personal photo collections sitting on a hard drive (I have a couplea hundred plat pictures from the local Botanic Garden that need labelling), to GLAM institutions wanting to upload thousands of images, such a site could be a first port of call. It would allow quick, easy upload of files, serve as a filter (admin rights may not be required), allow for batch editing of metadata, and (finally) fully automated upload to Commons.
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 8:00 AM Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org wrote:
On 15.04.2015 18:05, Brian Gerstle wrote:
I'm just troubled by some of the language used here, and elsewhere, which describes a "fear" of more users. I can't help but wonder how many companies or services would readily welcome a "massive influx of users." How will Wikipedia or Commons succeed if we're afraid growth?
Indeed, kinda of bizarre discussion... in particular for an open movement like our. IMO, the consequence of listening too much a few Commons people who feel themself in a fortress under siege (we have a few of them in all projects). For example, the GLAMwikitoolset is kept away from Commons users based on this kind of closeminded/feared arguments.
Like written later in this thread, we simply need user friendly tool for both users and administrators. But, to get them, you need to experiment the real problems, make bug reports, wait, etc... For a few people, this seems more simple to simply block progresses...
Anyway, braking software development to keep contributor's life complicated and impairing contribution is definitely not a solution.
Emmanuel
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Magnus Manske, 16/04/2015 11:02:
There is no "fear" of more Commons users; there is (valid) concern that Commons will get a large influx of pictures from one-time users
Let's not mix things up, I'm not aware of such a concern. Once again: the old mobile upload campaign attracted a lot of garbage because it solicited uploads out of context and reinvented the upload process in a way which made it very hard to enter the correct information about files. Making "standard" interfaces available for mobile users as well is mere feature parity and presents no issues. Only people who "know" they want to upload etc. will use them; that's good. Feature parity for the site means that mobile users as well as app users have an "upload" link in the tools and that the target is exactly like UploadWizard. Feature parity for Commons in general means that, as desktop users have many upload tools suitable for desktop, mobile users have something that integrates with their camera apps or whatever, as Amir says. Both are obvious goals and should be filed in Phabricator. (There should be always a bug filed for any feature parity issue.) As Emmanuel says, another (or even the main) blocker here might not be on the software side but rather on the networking side. We've had reports in the past of uploads being extremely hard from Hong Kong... imagine Africa indeed. Adding a caching datacentre somewhere is certainly welcome by most, when it's possible. :) The Mobile team could ask ops to help with some metrics on how frequent it is for mobile users to have networking conditions insufficient for uploading files.
Nemo