This is a "fun" one. Mailman3 along with lots of other new things, now has a decent bounce processor which means now bounce rules are actually being enforced now. So lots of disabled emails (departed staff, AOL/Yahoo spammers), trigger a bounce reaction and would be removed from your mailing list. If the owner (you) is not removed due to excessive bouncing, just ignore the emails. I assume it'll take months until we fully clean up the disabled emails. The problem of the owner being removed due to excessive bouncing is another story though. Basically, spammers send virus or spam to -owners@ or it gets held for moderation, which means mailman happily forward the email to the owner. Your mail server (Gmail, etc.) sees the virus/spam and bounces it. Mailman thinks "Oh it address is disabled" and once you bounce more than a certain threshold, it'll disable or remove you. We should work with upstream to fix this but in the meantime, you can play with bounce processing settings https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/lgbt.lists.wikimedia.org/settin… but don't worry, it won't remove any members except owners. HTH On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 6:13 PM Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Amir (he/him)

On 5/31/21 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: Yes. Mailman will only disable your subscription but you'll still be the list owner. If the list owner is bouncing, they will need to be removed manually. So far I've only removed one list owner for bouncing[1] since I knew their @wikimedia.org address was disabled. [1] https://sal.toolforge.org/log/-x0gwXkB8Fs0LHO5obVV -- Kunal

PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before. Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com> Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com>om>; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org <listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l. I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole? Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com> Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org <listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org>rg>; Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com> Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working. Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine. Federico

It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org… From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that. HTH On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com> wrote: -- Amir (he/him)

I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part. In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now. Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Leon Haanstra &lt;l.haanstra(a)yahoo.com&gt; Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org &lt;listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything needs further explaining/better arguments. Regads, Natuur12 On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani &lt;ladsgroup(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org… From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that. HTH On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.com<mailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com>> wrote: PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before. Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.com<mailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com>> Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com<mailto:nemowiki@gmail.com>>; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org<http://lists.wikimedia.org> <listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org>> Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l. I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole? Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com<mailto:nemowiki@gmail.com>> Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org<http://lists.wikimedia.org> <listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org>>; Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.com<mailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com>> Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working. Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine. Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Amir (he/him) _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

First, I doubt you would get someone to change the hotmail filters. It's not like they added a manual rule. It works on autopilot. The spamfilter *learns* that such message is bad. Not even the Microsoft guys really know how it decides that. And even if the ip address was blocked, the technicians would just be allowed to "mitigate" the ip, and are not allowed to deviate from the runbook. Second, the migration to mailman3 probably changed them enough so they "lost" a lot of the reputation it gained through the years. So if may have learnt that a message with certain wikimedia headers was ok, but mm3 emails are different enough they don't hit. Third, mailman *is* sending spam messages to the list owners. Those are requested, but they are being sent, so hotmail does have a point. *Do not mark them as spam*, even if it is a spam sent to <list>- owner(a)list.wikimedia.org, you *want* to receive them, not to make hotmail learn that email sent by lists.wikimedia.org is spam. Mails blocked to the list and sent to the list owners are problematic (and spammy) enough that I think mailman should offern an option not to include the full email not passed to the list, but only the subject. But that'd be a feature request. In the end, if you are a list admin, you have requested to receive them, even if they are spammy. You should be able to configure your mail for that. However, you may be using a provider which doesn't allow that kind of flexibility. By the way, gmail is marking me the previous mails of this list from Leon Haanstra as: "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." (they are not always obeying these filters ☹, but I am glad they at least allow them). This may be related to gmail considering list mail flow more spammy than usual, or simply because it's a yahoo.com email address and thus it fails the silly DMARC policy they added. Regards

Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local communities. Arguments like "a more modern look" and "convenience"  were used. The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the upgrade did so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative side effects. When people come forward with issue's regarding the upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it up with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem. After asking for better arguments, an even more vague and technocratic story is told. I feel like I'm calling an insurance company, sigh. Thanks to Platonides, I now at least have a grasp at what the issue is. But this entire migration leaves me pretty unsatisfied.  Regards, Natuur12 On Sunday, June 6, 2021, 02:59:59 AM GMT+2, Risker &lt;risker.wp(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: You might also want to consider adding the mailing list to your contacts for Hotmail.  I have found this makes a big difference for Hotmail, even more than filters do.  Risker/Anne On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 at 20:16, Platonides &lt;platonides(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: First, I doubt you would get someone to change the hotmail filters. It's not like they added a manual rule. It works on autopilot. The spamfilter learns that such message is bad. Not even the Microsoft guys really know how it decides that. And even if the ip address was blocked, the technicians would just be allowed to "mitigate" the ip, and are not allowed to deviate from the runbook. Second, the migration to mailman3 probably changed them enough so they "lost" a lot of the reputation it gained through the years. So if may have learnt that a message with certain wikimedia headers was ok, but mm3 emails are different enough they don't hit. Third, mailman is sending spam messages to the list owners. Those are requested, but they are being sent, so hotmail does have a point. Do not mark them as spam, even if it is a spam sent to &lt;list&gt;-owner(a)list.wikimedia.orgia.org, you want to receive them, not to make hotmail learn that email sent by lists.wikimedia.org is spam. Mails blocked to the list and sent to the list owners are problematic (and spammy) enough that I think mailman should offern an option not to include the full email not passed to the list, but only the subject. But that'd be a feature request.In the end, if you are a list admin, you have requested to receive them, even if they are spammy. You should be able to configure your mail for that. However, you may be using a provider which doesn't allow that kind of flexibility. By the way, gmail is marking me the previous mails of this list from Leon Haanstra as: "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." (they are not always obeying these filters ☹, but I am glad they at least allow them). This may be related to gmail considering list mail flow more spammy than usual, or simply because it's a yahoo.com email address and thus it fails the silly DMARC policy they added. Regards _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

Just to chime in: I'm actually super impressed with how this transition was handled, how list admins were consulted and allowed to test their individual transitions. People were explicitly invited to try out test instances on MM3, and see if they could find any bugs. Follow-up has been extremely helpful in shooting down bugs that were bound to appear. Ahead of time, anticipated downsides were shared and where possible mitigated. People were invited to share concerns. All in all this is a school example for how these transitions should happen. That doesn't mean that everything goes without a bump in the road, but the followed process is one that I could hardly make reasonable requests for improvement on. The fact that something doesn't exactly work out the way you hoped, does not mean that the process followed was flawed, and I think it's unfair to "summarize" this way. Thanks a lot for all the work Kunal and Amir (and other people who undoubtedly worked on this behind the screens). Lodewijk On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 9:56 PM Kunal Mehta &lt;legoktm(a)debian.org&gt; wrote:

I'm thinking mailman3 should probably keep a list of user bounces. So that when a user finds out he got unsubscribed, and logs into the interface, mailman could shown him the evidence on why it got disabled: «see. the last dozen emails I sent you, at dates D₁... D₁₂ failed with reason "no such user", "mailbox is full", "i'm a teapot", "This looks like spam"... What did you expect me to do if you don't accept my mails?» So that the user could confront their mail provider on why it is rejecting the emails he wants to receive. Best regards PS: Join me to the list of guys congratulating a good work on migrating the lists!

There is a setting for notifying the owner on disabling or removing a member due to excessive bouncing. You need to enable it. If you can't find the setting. Let me know. There are logs of unsubscriptions in the server too. We can access it if we need to but it's kept for short period of time like 3 months at most. HTH Risker &lt;risker.wp(a)gmail.com&gt; schrieb am Mo., 14. Juni 2021, 02:34:

That's probably because that's not a "normal" list, where it is sent. I think Mailman2 didn't even had the abiliiy to automatically "unsubscribe" list owners/moderators.

Hi, Sorry, I missed replying to this earlier. On 6/13/21 5:33 PM, Risker wrote: In general, you should be getting notices that someone is unsubscribed due to bounces as long as the "Bounce Processing" -> "Notify owner on disable/removal" settings are enabled. The one exception to this is on 2021-05-31 when we got flooded with bounces and mass unsubscribed users to the point where Mailman had some 70k email notifications queued (one for the user being unsubscribed, another for the list admins), which would've taken anywhere from 3-7 days to deliver, at which time all normal mailing list mail would've been on hold until the queue cleared out...so I just deleted all the notifications from the queue. I kept the actual notification messages though, plus we should still have the logs from then (at least for another week) so we can look up and provide a list of addresses that were unsubscribed from specific lists if you'd like. -- Kunal

Hi Szymon, On 7/5/21 1:30 PM, Szymon Grabarczuk wrote: If they set it back to "enabled", there should be nothing else to do. If they're still having trouble please send me the list name and email address offlist and I can look with more detail in case there's anything else. -- Kunal

Hi, Problem is not only with Hotmail, I have gmail account and it is being disabled every other day too. Regards, DV On Sat, 5 Jun 2021, 23:12 Amir Sarabadani, &lt;ladsgroup(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: