Being "at fault" is a misleading term here. It's a bad interaction between
hotmail and mailman3, that's for sure but it doesn't make mailman3
problematic here. I'm not saying it didn't start with the mailman3 upgrade
but it doesn't make mm3 the party that needs fixing.
A little bit of technical explanation. Hope that helps. mm2 used to send a
completely different set of headers with the email. For example, These are
headers of two different emails from the same mailing list in mm2 and mm3:
mm2:
To: Cloud-announce(a)lists.wikimedia.org
X-BeenThere: cloud-announce(a)lists.wikimedia.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625870431424236464=="
Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] New Wikireplicas available, timeline
update, and Quarry migration
X-BeenThere: cloud(a)lists.wikimedia.org
List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support
<cloud.lists.wikimedia.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/options/cloud>,
<mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/cloud/>
List-Post: <mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud>,
<mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=subscribe>
mm3:
To: Cloud-announce(a)lists.wikimedia.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43)
X-MailFrom: bstorm(a)wikimedia.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved;
emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation;
header-match-cloud-announce.lists.wikimedia.org-0;
nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients;
max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.3
Precedence: list
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8712432623581038340=="
Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E
X-Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E
X-MailFrom: cloud-announce-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved;
emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation;
header-match-cloud.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation;
administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size;
news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
Reply-To: cloud(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] Mounts for Scratch NFS changing a
bit tomorrow (2021-05-27 around 20:00 UTC)
List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support
<cloud.lists.wikimedia.org>
Archived-At:
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/message/JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E/>
List-Archive:
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/>
List-Help: <mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:cloud-owner@lists.wikimedia.org>
List-Post: <mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:cloud-join@lists.wikimedia.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:cloud-leave@lists.wikimedia.org>
It can be that hotmail needs X-BeenThere header which is removed
(because it's deprecated in 2007:
)
or the extra headers trigger the hotmail's spam detection. I'm clearly
speculating here as I have no knowledge of the internals of hotmail
and can't help you in that part but these headers doesn't make mm3
problematic.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:19 PM Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen
before the upgrade, so
perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail
would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not
end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
Trijnstel
------------------------------
*Van:* Leon Haanstra <l.haanstra(a)yahoo.com>
*Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07
*Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on
lists.wikimedia.org
<listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
*Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce
score?
It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone
affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody
like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that
hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything
needs further explaining/better arguments.
Regads,
Natuur12
On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani <
ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you
can disable bounce processing
https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org…
From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam
and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this
and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version
and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails
you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam
detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use
that.
HTH
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists
were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel
------------------------------
*Van:* Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com>
*Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04
*Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com>om>; List for discussions
related to list admins on
lists.wikimedia.org <
listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
*Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce
score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before,
only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled
again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't
archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing
emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't
think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel
------------------------------
*Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com>
*Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32
*Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on
lists.wikimedia.org
<listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org>rg>; Trijnstel wp <trijnstel(a)hotmail.com>
*Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce
score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list
(and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly
they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably
disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's
possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some
non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some
messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is
bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently
discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft
mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal
domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's
fine.
Federico
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--
Amir (he/him)
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