Hi all,
My subscription of one the mailing lists I'm subscribed to was disabled due to a bounce score. Afaics I was the only one. But there is nothing wrong with my email, and this was also the only mailing list I got this message. Right now I enabled it again, but two questions:
* Are the bounce settings perhaps not correct? Right now it is: bounce score treshold = 20, bounce info stale after = 7d, bounce disabled warnings interval = 7d, bounce disable warnings = 3 * In the previous version of mailman I could easily see a long list of all subscriptions and which email was enabled/not enabled etc. In this new version I don't see this. Is there a way to make this visible or is this simply not possible?
Thank you.
Trijnstel
________________________________ Van: listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org Verzonden: maandag 31 mei 2021 02:13 Aan: checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription disabled on CheckUser-l
Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription has been disabled on checkuser-l@lists.wikimedia.org due to their bounce score exceeding the mailing list's bounce_score_threshold.
You're not the only one. I got a few of those messages for my email but I have no idea what it means. Am I to assume that I shouldn't ignore these messages?
Andrew
Sent from my smartphone. Apologies for any typos.
-------- Original message -------- From: Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Date: 2021-05-31 11:27 a.m. (GMT-05:00) To: listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
Hi all,
My subscription of one the mailing lists I'm subscribed to was disabled due to a bounce score. Afaics I was the only one. But there is nothing wrong with my email, and this was also the only mailing list I got this message. Right now I enabled it again, but two questions:
* Are the bounce settings perhaps not correct? Right now it is: bounce score treshold = 20, bounce info stale after = 7d, bounce disabled warnings interval = 7d, bounce disable warnings = 3 * In the previous version of mailman I could easily see a long list of all subscriptions and which email was enabled/not enabled etc. In this new version I don't see this. Is there a way to make this visible or is this simply not possible?
Thank you.
Trijnstel
________________________________ Van: listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org Verzonden: maandag 31 mei 2021 02:13 Aan: checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription disabled on CheckUser-l
Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription has been disabled on checkuser-l@lists.wikimedia.org due to their bounce score exceeding the mailing list's bounce_score_threshold.
Same happened to me too, and I am getting the notification of subscription disabling every 8-12 hours.
I am a list admin as well though.
Regards, Dhaval Vyas
On Mon, 31 May 2021, 16:27 Trijnstel wp, trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
My subscription of one the mailing lists I'm subscribed to was disabled due to a bounce score. Afaics I was the only one. But there is nothing wrong with my email, and this was also the only mailing list I got this message. Right now I enabled it again, but two questions:
- Are the bounce settings perhaps not correct? Right now it is: bounce
score treshold = 20, bounce info stale after = 7d, bounce disabled warnings interval = 7d, bounce disable warnings = 3
- In the previous version of mailman I could easily see a long list of
all subscriptions and which email was enabled/not enabled etc. In this new version I don't see this. Is there a way to make this visible or is this simply not possible?
Thank you.
Trijnstel
*Van:* listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org < listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org> *Verzonden:* maandag 31 mei 2021 02:13 *Aan:* checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org < checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org> *Onderwerp:* Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription disabled on CheckUser-l
Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription has been disabled on checkuser-l@lists.wikimedia.org due to their bounce score exceeding the mailing list's bounce_score_threshold. _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
This is a "fun" one.
Mailman3 along with lots of other new things, now has a decent bounce processor which means now bounce rules are actually being enforced now. So lots of disabled emails (departed staff, AOL/Yahoo spammers), trigger a bounce reaction and would be removed from your mailing list. If the owner (you) is not removed due to excessive bouncing, just ignore the emails. I assume it'll take months until we fully clean up the disabled emails.
The problem of the owner being removed due to excessive bouncing is another story though. Basically, spammers send virus or spam to -owners@ or it gets held for moderation, which means mailman happily forward the email to the owner. Your mail server (Gmail, etc.) sees the virus/spam and bounces it. Mailman thinks "Oh it address is disabled" and once you bounce more than a certain threshold, it'll disable or remove you. We should work with upstream to fix this but in the meantime, you can play with bounce processing settings https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/lgbt.lists.wikimedia.org/setting... but don't worry, it won't remove any members except owners.
HTH
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 6:13 PM Dhaval S. Vyas dsvyas@gmail.com wrote:
Same happened to me too, and I am getting the notification of subscription disabling every 8-12 hours.
I am a list admin as well though.
Regards, Dhaval Vyas
On Mon, 31 May 2021, 16:27 Trijnstel wp, trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
My subscription of one the mailing lists I'm subscribed to was disabled due to a bounce score. Afaics I was the only one. But there is nothing wrong with my email, and this was also the only mailing list I got this message. Right now I enabled it again, but two questions:
- Are the bounce settings perhaps not correct? Right now it is:
bounce score treshold = 20, bounce info stale after = 7d, bounce disabled warnings interval = 7d, bounce disable warnings = 3
- In the previous version of mailman I could easily see a long list
of all subscriptions and which email was enabled/not enabled etc. In this new version I don't see this. Is there a way to make this visible or is this simply not possible?
Thank you.
Trijnstel
*Van:* listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org < listadmins-owner@lists.wikimedia.org> *Verzonden:* maandag 31 mei 2021 02:13 *Aan:* checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org < checkuser-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org> *Onderwerp:* Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription disabled on CheckUser-l
Trijnstel trijnstel@hotmail.com's subscription has been disabled on checkuser-l@lists.wikimedia.org due to their bounce score exceeding the mailing list's bounce_score_threshold. _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
On 5/31/21 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Il 31/05/21 19:22, Amir Sarabadani ha scritto:
but don't worry, it won't remove any members except owners.
Are owners still owners without being members?
Yes. Mailman will only disable your subscription but you'll still be the list owner.
If the list owner is bouncing, they will need to be removed manually. So far I've only removed one list owner for bouncing[1] since I knew their @wikimedia.org address was disabled.
[1] https://sal.toolforge.org/log/-x0gwXkB8Fs0LHO5obVV
-- Kunal
Hi Trijnstel,
On 5/31/21 1:50 AM, Trijnstel wp wrote:
Hi all,
My subscription of one the mailing lists I'm subscribed to was disabled due to a bounce score. Afaics I was the only one. But there is nothing wrong with my email, and this was also the only mailing list I got this message. Right now I enabled it again, but two questions:
I will email you privately with more information, but from what I can see in server logs your email is actually bouncing.
- Are the bounce settings perhaps not correct? Right now it is: bounce score treshold = 20, bounce info stale after = 7d, bounce disabled warnings interval = 7d, bounce disable warnings = 3
Those seem reasonable to me.
- In the previous version of mailman I could easily see a long list of all subscriptions and which email was enabled/not enabled etc. In this new version I don't see this. Is there a way to make this visible or is this simply not possible?
It's not "easily" possible, you have to click on each member individually to see their state of enabled/disabled. The next (unreleased) version of Mailman has some improvements in this area, I will look to see if this has been implemented or whether we need to file a ticket for it.
-- Kunal
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico
Good evening, I experienced the same problem as Trijnstel, with my hotmail account. No problems with my gmail account, or my yahoo account. I only experienced this issue at mailing lists of which I'm a moderator, not at other mailing lists. I do hope someone will take responsibility and fix this. Regards, Natuur12 On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 08:16:51 PM GMT+2, Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
#yiv1084372609 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before. Trijnstel Van: Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? #yiv1084372609 #yiv1084372609 --p {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv1084372609 It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l. I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/...
From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that.
HTH
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel
*Van:* Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 *Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org < listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel
*Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com *Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything needs further explaining/better arguments. Regads, Natuur12 On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/... From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that. HTH On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before. Trijnstel Van: Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l. I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score? I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Leon Haanstra l.haanstra@yahoo.com Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything needs further explaining/better arguments.
Regads,
Natuur12
On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/...
From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that.
HTH
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.commailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com> wrote: PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.commailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com> Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 Aan: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.commailto:nemowiki@gmail.com>; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.orghttp://lists.wikimedia.org <listadmins@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.commailto:nemowiki@gmail.com> Verzonden: dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.orghttp://lists.wikimedia.org <listadmins@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org>; Trijnstel wp <trijnstel@hotmail.commailto:trijnstel@hotmail.com> Onderwerp: Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
-- Amir (he/him)
_______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Being "at fault" is a misleading term here. It's a bad interaction between hotmail and mailman3, that's for sure but it doesn't make mailman3 problematic here. I'm not saying it didn't start with the mailman3 upgrade but it doesn't make mm3 the party that needs fixing.
A little bit of technical explanation. Hope that helps. mm2 used to send a completely different set of headers with the email. For example, These are headers of two different emails from the same mailing list in mm2 and mm3:
mm2:
To: Cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-BeenThere: cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625870431424236464==" Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] New Wikireplicas available, timeline update, and Quarry migration X-BeenThere: cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> List-Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/options/cloud, mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/cloud/ List-Post: mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Help: mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud, mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=subscribe
mm3: To: Cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-MailFrom: bstorm@wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud-announce.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.3 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8712432623581038340==" Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-MailFrom: cloud-announce-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header Reply-To: cloud@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] Mounts for Scratch NFS changing a bit tomorrow (2021-05-27 around 20:00 UTC) List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> Archived-At: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/message/JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E/ List-Archive: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/ List-Help: mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help List-Owner: mailto:cloud-owner@lists.wikimedia.org List-Post: mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Subscribe: mailto:cloud-join@lists.wikimedia.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:cloud-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
It can be that hotmail needs X-BeenThere header which is removed (because it's deprecated in 2007: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailman3_Migration#Email_filters) or the extra headers trigger the hotmail's spam detection. I'm clearly speculating here as I have no knowledge of the internals of hotmail and can't help you in that part but these headers doesn't make mm3 problematic.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:19 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
Trijnstel
*Van:* Leon Haanstra l.haanstra@yahoo.com *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything needs further explaining/better arguments.
Regads,
Natuur12
On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/...
From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that.
HTH
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel
*Van:* Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 *Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org < listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel
*Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com *Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- Amir (he/him)
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First, I doubt you would get someone to change the hotmail filters. It's not like they added a manual rule. It works on autopilot. The spamfilter *learns* that such message is bad. Not even the Microsoft guys really know how it decides that. And even if the ip address was blocked, the technicians would just be allowed to "mitigate" the ip, and are not allowed to deviate from the runbook.
Second, the migration to mailman3 probably changed them enough so they "lost" a lot of the reputation it gained through the years. So if may have learnt that a message with certain wikimedia headers was ok, but mm3 emails are different enough they don't hit.
Third, mailman *is* sending spam messages to the list owners. Those are requested, but they are being sent, so hotmail does have a point. *Do not mark them as spam*, even if it is a spam sent to <list>- owner@list.wikimedia.org, you *want* to receive them, not to make hotmail learn that email sent by lists.wikimedia.org is spam.
Mails blocked to the list and sent to the list owners are problematic (and spammy) enough that I think mailman should offern an option not to include the full email not passed to the list, but only the subject. But that'd be a feature request. In the end, if you are a list admin, you have requested to receive them, even if they are spammy. You should be able to configure your mail for that. However, you may be using a provider which doesn't allow that kind of flexibility.
By the way, gmail is marking me the previous mails of this list from Leon Haanstra as: "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." (they are not always obeying these filters ☹, but I am glad they at least allow them). This may be related to gmail considering list mail flow more spammy than usual, or simply because it's a yahoo.com email address and thus it fails the silly DMARC policy they added.
Regards
You might also want to consider adding the mailing list to your contacts for Hotmail. I have found this makes a big difference for Hotmail, even more than filters do.
Risker/Anne
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 at 20:16, Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
First, I doubt you would get someone to change the hotmail filters. It's not like they added a manual rule. It works on autopilot. The spamfilter *learns* that such message is bad. Not even the Microsoft guys really know how it decides that. And even if the ip address was blocked, the technicians would just be allowed to "mitigate" the ip, and are not allowed to deviate from the runbook.
Second, the migration to mailman3 probably changed them enough so they "lost" a lot of the reputation it gained through the years. So if may have learnt that a message with certain wikimedia headers was ok, but mm3 emails are different enough they don't hit.
Third, mailman *is* sending spam messages to the list owners. Those are requested, but they are being sent, so hotmail does have a point. *Do not mark them as spam*, even if it is a spam sent to <list>- owner@list.wikimedia.org, you *want* to receive them, not to make hotmail learn that email sent by lists.wikimedia.org is spam.
Mails blocked to the list and sent to the list owners are problematic (and spammy) enough that I think mailman should offern an option not to include the full email not passed to the list, but only the subject. But that'd be a feature request. In the end, if you are a list admin, you have requested to receive them, even if they are spammy. You should be able to configure your mail for that. However, you may be using a provider which doesn't allow that kind of flexibility.
By the way, gmail is marking me the previous mails of this list from Leon Haanstra as: "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." (they are not always obeying these filters ☹, but I am glad they at least allow them). This may be related to gmail considering list mail flow more spammy than usual, or simply because it's a yahoo.com email address and thus it fails the silly DMARC policy they added.
Regards
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local communities. Arguments like "a more modern look" and "convenience" were used. The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the upgrade did so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative side effects. When people come forward with issue's regarding the upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it up with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem. After asking for better arguments, an even more vague and technocratic story is told. I feel like I'm calling an insurance company, sigh. Thanks to Platonides, I now at least have a grasp at what the issue is. But this entire migration leaves me pretty unsatisfied. Regards, Natuur12 On Sunday, June 6, 2021, 02:59:59 AM GMT+2, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
You might also want to consider adding the mailing list to your contacts for Hotmail. I have found this makes a big difference for Hotmail, even more than filters do.
Risker/Anne
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 at 20:16, Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
First, I doubt you would get someone to change the hotmail filters. It's not like they added a manual rule. It works on autopilot. The spamfilter learns that such message is bad. Not even the Microsoft guys really know how it decides that. And even if the ip address was blocked, the technicians would just be allowed to "mitigate" the ip, and are not allowed to deviate from the runbook. Second, the migration to mailman3 probably changed them enough so they "lost" a lot of the reputation it gained through the years. So if may have learnt that a message with certain wikimedia headers was ok, but mm3 emails are different enough they don't hit. Third, mailman is sending spam messages to the list owners. Those are requested, but they are being sent, so hotmail does have a point. Do not mark them as spam, even if it is a spam sent to <list>-owner@list.wikimedia.org, you want to receive them, not to make hotmail learn that email sent by lists.wikimedia.org is spam. Mails blocked to the list and sent to the list owners are problematic (and spammy) enough that I think mailman should offern an option not to include the full email not passed to the list, but only the subject. But that'd be a feature request.In the end, if you are a list admin, you have requested to receive them, even if they are spammy. You should be able to configure your mail for that. However, you may be using a provider which doesn't allow that kind of flexibility.
By the way, gmail is marking me the previous mails of this list from Leon Haanstra as: "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." (they are not always obeying these filters ☹, but I am glad they at least allow them). This may be related to gmail considering list mail flow more spammy than usual, or simply because it's a yahoo.com email address and thus it fails the silly DMARC policy they added.
Regards _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi,
On 6/6/21 1:02 PM, Leon Haanstra wrote:
Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local communities.
I don't know what kind of consultation you wanted, but I think https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 tells the story pretty well. It's been just about 8 years since this was asked for and I'm not aware of a single person who didn't want to upgrade Mailman.
Arguments like "a more modern look" and "convenience" were used.
Well yes, but the main reason was actually security. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T118641 explains the flaws in MM2. We only discovered some major security/privacy issues in our MM2 setup because we started working on the migration.
The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the upgrade did so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative side effects.
Mailman3 is easily better than Mailman2 *overall*, but it's certainly not perfect. Some key features are worse, missing, or broken. We've asked people to file bugs and report issues to us when they encounter them, but it's taking a while to get through everything because the list keeps growing. We don't send email announcements every time we fixed something because that would be pretty spammy!
When people come forward with issue's regarding the upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it up with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem.
It wasn't my intention to suggest that, sorry if it came across that way.
My take is that Mailman is sending emails that the user legitimately signed up for, and Hotmail is *bouncing* them back rather than marking them as junk or something else. I don't think Hotmail is doing the right thing there, but I think it's clear something changed on the Mailman3 side that triggered this change in Hotmail's treatment of our emails.
But at the same time I feel pretty limited in debugging problems with the CheckUser-l mailing list. There are no archives I can look at, I'm not a subscriber who gets copies of emails, and I don't want to add any logging to capture bounce messages in case they do have private/confidential data. The next Mailman version will send the raw bounce message to the listadmin (per https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/908) which should give us some more info, but it's not super straightforward for me to patch our installation with, I'm still looking into that.
So for now the only suggestion I have is to reach out to Hotmail...or disable bounce processing.
Maybe we missed some setting in the migration? I'm not sure, more eyes are always appreciated, really. I and Amir and others who've already spent time on this are committed to getting this issue fixed, and we've already been doing so ever since we started the MM3 migration.
I enjoy working on mailing lists because I recognize how important they are to the movement, but it's pretty demotivating to just read "oh you didn't consult the communities" as a reason this shouldn't have been done when that's blatantly false. HTH, -- Kunal
Just to chime in:
I'm actually super impressed with how this transition was handled, how list admins were consulted and allowed to test their individual transitions. People were explicitly invited to try out test instances on MM3, and see if they could find any bugs. Follow-up has been extremely helpful in shooting down bugs that were bound to appear. Ahead of time, anticipated downsides were shared and where possible mitigated. People were invited to share concerns.
All in all this is a school example for how these transitions should happen. That doesn't mean that everything goes without a bump in the road, but the followed process is one that I could hardly make reasonable requests for improvement on. The fact that something doesn't exactly work out the way you hoped, does not mean that the process followed was flawed, and I think it's unfair to "summarize" this way.
Thanks a lot for all the work Kunal and Amir (and other people who undoubtedly worked on this behind the screens).
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 9:56 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi,
On 6/6/21 1:02 PM, Leon Haanstra wrote:
Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local communities.
I don't know what kind of consultation you wanted, but I think https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 tells the story pretty well. It's been just about 8 years since this was asked for and I'm not aware of a single person who didn't want to upgrade Mailman.
Arguments like "a more modern look" and "convenience" were used.
Well yes, but the main reason was actually security. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T118641 explains the flaws in MM2. We only discovered some major security/privacy issues in our MM2 setup because we started working on the migration.
The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the upgrade did so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative side effects.
Mailman3 is easily better than Mailman2 *overall*, but it's certainly not perfect. Some key features are worse, missing, or broken. We've asked people to file bugs and report issues to us when they encounter them, but it's taking a while to get through everything because the list keeps growing. We don't send email announcements every time we fixed something because that would be pretty spammy!
When people come forward with issue's regarding the upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it up with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem.
It wasn't my intention to suggest that, sorry if it came across that way.
My take is that Mailman is sending emails that the user legitimately signed up for, and Hotmail is *bouncing* them back rather than marking them as junk or something else. I don't think Hotmail is doing the right thing there, but I think it's clear something changed on the Mailman3 side that triggered this change in Hotmail's treatment of our emails.
But at the same time I feel pretty limited in debugging problems with the CheckUser-l mailing list. There are no archives I can look at, I'm not a subscriber who gets copies of emails, and I don't want to add any logging to capture bounce messages in case they do have private/confidential data. The next Mailman version will send the raw bounce message to the listadmin (per https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/908) which should give us some more info, but it's not super straightforward for me to patch our installation with, I'm still looking into that.
So for now the only suggestion I have is to reach out to Hotmail...or disable bounce processing.
Maybe we missed some setting in the migration? I'm not sure, more eyes are always appreciated, really. I and Amir and others who've already spent time on this are committed to getting this issue fixed, and we've already been doing so ever since we started the MM3 migration.
I enjoy working on mailing lists because I recognize how important they are to the movement, but it's pretty demotivating to just read "oh you didn't consult the communities" as a reason this shouldn't have been done when that's blatantly false. HTH, -- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
What Lodewijk said.
It is understandable that some folks missed or were too busy to notice/read all that communication surrounding the transition, and so found themselves only noticing the disruption caused by the problems encountered. It is also understandable that they would complain about the disruption, not realizing there *was* advance notice and there *were* opportunities to test in advance.
But it was indeed one of the best-planned and most careful non-internal technological transitions we've seen over the years. Kunal, Amir, and the others involved went above and beyond.
They are also committed to solving these issues, even if it takes a long time. They deserve gratitude and patience. (If not apologies from those who falsely asserted there was no consultation.)
A.
Asaf Bartov (he/him/his)
Senior Program Officer, Emerging Wikimedia Communities
Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org
On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 10:44 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
Just to chime in:
I'm actually super impressed with how this transition was handled, how list admins were consulted and allowed to test their individual transitions. People were explicitly invited to try out test instances on MM3, and see if they could find any bugs. Follow-up has been extremely helpful in shooting down bugs that were bound to appear. Ahead of time, anticipated downsides were shared and where possible mitigated. People were invited to share concerns.
All in all this is a school example for how these transitions should happen. That doesn't mean that everything goes without a bump in the road, but the followed process is one that I could hardly make reasonable requests for improvement on. The fact that something doesn't exactly work out the way you hoped, does not mean that the process followed was flawed, and I think it's unfair to "summarize" this way.
Thanks a lot for all the work Kunal and Amir (and other people who undoubtedly worked on this behind the screens).
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 9:56 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi,
On 6/6/21 1:02 PM, Leon Haanstra wrote:
Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local communities.
I don't know what kind of consultation you wanted, but I think https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 tells the story pretty well. It's been just about 8 years since this was asked for and I'm not aware of a single person who didn't want to upgrade Mailman.
Arguments like "a more modern look" and "convenience" were used.
Well yes, but the main reason was actually security. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T118641 explains the flaws in MM2. We only discovered some major security/privacy issues in our MM2 setup because we started working on the migration.
The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the upgrade did so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative side effects.
Mailman3 is easily better than Mailman2 *overall*, but it's certainly not perfect. Some key features are worse, missing, or broken. We've asked people to file bugs and report issues to us when they encounter them, but it's taking a while to get through everything because the list keeps growing. We don't send email announcements every time we fixed something because that would be pretty spammy!
When people come forward with issue's regarding the upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it
up
with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem.
It wasn't my intention to suggest that, sorry if it came across that way.
My take is that Mailman is sending emails that the user legitimately signed up for, and Hotmail is *bouncing* them back rather than marking them as junk or something else. I don't think Hotmail is doing the right thing there, but I think it's clear something changed on the Mailman3 side that triggered this change in Hotmail's treatment of our emails.
But at the same time I feel pretty limited in debugging problems with the CheckUser-l mailing list. There are no archives I can look at, I'm not a subscriber who gets copies of emails, and I don't want to add any logging to capture bounce messages in case they do have private/confidential data. The next Mailman version will send the raw bounce message to the listadmin (per https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/908) which should give us some more info, but it's not super straightforward for me to patch our installation with, I'm still looking into that.
So for now the only suggestion I have is to reach out to Hotmail...or disable bounce processing.
Maybe we missed some setting in the migration? I'm not sure, more eyes are always appreciated, really. I and Amir and others who've already spent time on this are committed to getting this issue fixed, and we've already been doing so ever since we started the MM3 migration.
I enjoy working on mailing lists because I recognize how important they are to the movement, but it's pretty demotivating to just read "oh you didn't consult the communities" as a reason this shouldn't have been done when that's blatantly false. HTH, -- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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I'm thinking mailman3 should probably keep a list of user bounces. So that when a user finds out he got unsubscribed, and logs into the interface, mailman could shown him the evidence on why it got disabled: «see. the last dozen emails I sent you, at dates D₁... D₁₂ failed with reason "no such user", "mailbox is full", "i'm a teapot", "This looks like spam"... What did you expect me to do if you don't accept my mails?» So that the user could confront their mail provider on why it is rejecting the emails he wants to receive.
Best regards
PS: Join me to the list of guys congratulating a good work on migrating the lists!
I think what's bugging me the most with this is that with MM2 listadmins got notice that someone was unsubscribed due to bounces, and we aren't getting those notices now. I could live with having to adjust the bounces (especially for private lists), but there's something wrong with not sending out the bounce-unsubscribe notice, especially when "regular" unsubscribe notices are being sent out.
Risker/Anne
On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 20:05, Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
I'm thinking mailman3 should probably keep a list of user bounces. So that when a user finds out he got unsubscribed, and logs into the interface, mailman could shown him the evidence on why it got disabled: «see. the last dozen emails I sent you, at dates D₁... D₁₂ failed with reason "no such user", "mailbox is full", "i'm a teapot", "This looks like spam"... What did you expect me to do if you don't accept my mails?» So that the user could confront their mail provider on why it is rejecting the emails he wants to receive.
Best regards
PS: Join me to the list of guys congratulating a good work on migrating the lists!
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
There is a setting for notifying the owner on disabling or removing a member due to excessive bouncing. You need to enable it. If you can't find the setting. Let me know.
There are logs of unsubscriptions in the server too. We can access it if we need to but it's kept for short period of time like 3 months at most.
HTH
Risker risker.wp@gmail.com schrieb am Mo., 14. Juni 2021, 02:34:
I think what's bugging me the most with this is that with MM2 listadmins got notice that someone was unsubscribed due to bounces, and we aren't getting those notices now. I could live with having to adjust the bounces (especially for private lists), but there's something wrong with not sending out the bounce-unsubscribe notice, especially when "regular" unsubscribe notices are being sent out.
Risker/Anne
On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 20:05, Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
I'm thinking mailman3 should probably keep a list of user bounces. So that when a user finds out he got unsubscribed, and logs into the interface, mailman could shown him the evidence on why it got disabled: «see. the last dozen emails I sent you, at dates D₁... D₁₂ failed with reason "no such user", "mailbox is full", "i'm a teapot", "This looks like spam"... What did you expect me to do if you don't accept my mails?» So that the user could confront their mail provider on why it is rejecting the emails he wants to receive.
Best regards
PS: Join me to the list of guys congratulating a good work on migrating the lists!
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Hi Amir - those settings are all turned on for the various lists I "own". There doesn't seem to be a way to manage the -owner lists, though. What am I missing?
Risker/Anne
On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 21:44, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
There is a setting for notifying the owner on disabling or removing a member due to excessive bouncing. You need to enable it. If you can't find the setting. Let me know.
There are logs of unsubscriptions in the server too. We can access it if we need to but it's kept for short period of time like 3 months at most.
HTH
Risker risker.wp@gmail.com schrieb am Mo., 14. Juni 2021, 02:34:
I think what's bugging me the most with this is that with MM2 listadmins got notice that someone was unsubscribed due to bounces, and we aren't getting those notices now. I could live with having to adjust the bounces (especially for private lists), but there's something wrong with not sending out the bounce-unsubscribe notice, especially when "regular" unsubscribe notices are being sent out.
Risker/Anne
On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 20:05, Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
I'm thinking mailman3 should probably keep a list of user bounces. So that when a user finds out he got unsubscribed, and logs into the interface, mailman could shown him the evidence on why it got disabled: «see. the last dozen emails I sent you, at dates D₁... D₁₂ failed with reason "no such user", "mailbox is full", "i'm a teapot", "This looks like spam"... What did you expect me to do if you don't accept my mails?» So that the user could confront their mail provider on why it is rejecting the emails he wants to receive.
Best regards
PS: Join me to the list of guys congratulating a good work on migrating the lists!
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That's probably because that's not a "normal" list, where it is sent. I think Mailman2 didn't even had the abiliiy to automatically "unsubscribe" list owners/moderators.
AFAIK. They are not lists at all. They are just suffixes to an existing list. Similarly, when you have listadmins@, you would have listadmins-owner@, listadmins-leave@, listadmins-join@, etc. automatically.
-owners is basically a redirector to owners of that given list. Add someone to the list of owners, they will get emails, remove someone, they won't get emails. Removing someone from owners in most cases (e.g. for excessive bouncing) means the user in the mailing list is also got removed so you'll get an email for that at least.
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 1:27 AM Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
That's probably because that's not a "normal" list, where it is sent. I think Mailman2 didn't even had the abiliiy to automatically "unsubscribe" list owners/moderators.
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Hi,
Sorry, I missed replying to this earlier.
On 6/13/21 5:33 PM, Risker wrote:
I think what's bugging me the most with this is that with MM2 listadmins got notice that someone was unsubscribed due to bounces, and we aren't getting those notices now. I could live with having to adjust the bounces (especially for private lists), but there's something wrong with not sending out the bounce-unsubscribe notice, especially when "regular" unsubscribe notices are being sent out.
In general, you should be getting notices that someone is unsubscribed due to bounces as long as the "Bounce Processing" -> "Notify owner on disable/removal" settings are enabled.
The one exception to this is on 2021-05-31 when we got flooded with bounces and mass unsubscribed users to the point where Mailman had some 70k email notifications queued (one for the user being unsubscribed, another for the list admins), which would've taken anywhere from 3-7 days to deliver, at which time all normal mailing list mail would've been on hold until the queue cleared out...so I just deleted all the notifications from the queue.
I kept the actual notification messages though, plus we should still have the logs from then (at least for another week) so we can look up and provide a list of addresses that were unsubscribed from specific lists if you'd like.
-- Kunal
Hello!
A (someone else's, not mine) subscription to a list I'm an admin of has been "disabled due to a bounce score". That person is using Yahoo.
What should I do?
More info on the list's settings:
- I've checked the individual settings of their subscription, and it's"delivery status -> enabled". - There's no regex prohibiting any Yahoo address from sending messages. - "Default action to take when a member posts to the list" is set to "Default Processing". - They're not set as "put on hold".
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On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 at 11:03, Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi,
Sorry, I missed replying to this earlier.
On 6/13/21 5:33 PM, Risker wrote:
I think what's bugging me the most with this is that with MM2 listadmins got notice that someone was unsubscribed due to bounces, and we aren't getting those notices now. I could live with having to adjust the bounces (especially for private lists), but there's something wrong with not sending out the bounce-unsubscribe notice, especially when "regular" unsubscribe notices are being sent out.
In general, you should be getting notices that someone is unsubscribed due to bounces as long as the "Bounce Processing" -> "Notify owner on disable/removal" settings are enabled.
The one exception to this is on 2021-05-31 when we got flooded with bounces and mass unsubscribed users to the point where Mailman had some 70k email notifications queued (one for the user being unsubscribed, another for the list admins), which would've taken anywhere from 3-7 days to deliver, at which time all normal mailing list mail would've been on hold until the queue cleared out...so I just deleted all the notifications from the queue.
I kept the actual notification messages though, plus we should still have the logs from then (at least for another week) so we can look up and provide a list of addresses that were unsubscribed from specific lists if you'd like.
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi Szymon,
On 7/5/21 1:30 PM, Szymon Grabarczuk wrote:
What should I do?
More info on the list's settings:
- I've checked the individual settings of their subscription, and it's"delivery status -> enabled".
If they set it back to "enabled", there should be nothing else to do. If they're still having trouble please send me the list name and email address offlist and I can look with more detail in case there's anything else.
-- Kunal
I'll note in passing that there is a long, long history of Yahoo email addresses getting bounce-blocked on Mailman that has to do with the Yahoo configuration; in the past, even including the list's email address as a direct contact wasn't always enough for Yahoo to stop bouncing. I hope that this problem isn't repeating itself, but you might want to suggest to the user to add the list's email address to their recognized contact list.
Risker/Anne
On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 at 14:31, Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi Szymon,
On 7/5/21 1:30 PM, Szymon Grabarczuk wrote:
What should I do?
More info on the list's settings:
- I've checked the individual settings of their subscription, and it's"delivery status -> enabled".
If they set it back to "enabled", there should be nothing else to do. If they're still having trouble please send me the list name and email address offlist and I can look with more detail in case there's anything else.
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi,
Problem is not only with Hotmail, I have gmail account and it is being disabled every other day too.
Regards, DV
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021, 23:12 Amir Sarabadani, ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Being "at fault" is a misleading term here. It's a bad interaction between hotmail and mailman3, that's for sure but it doesn't make mailman3 problematic here. I'm not saying it didn't start with the mailman3 upgrade but it doesn't make mm3 the party that needs fixing.
A little bit of technical explanation. Hope that helps. mm2 used to send a completely different set of headers with the email. For example, These are headers of two different emails from the same mailing list in mm2 and mm3:
mm2:
To: Cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-BeenThere: cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625870431424236464==" Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] New Wikireplicas available, timeline update, and Quarry migration X-BeenThere: cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> List-Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/options/cloud, mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/cloud/ List-Post: mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Help: mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud, mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=subscribe
mm3: To: Cloud-announce@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-MailFrom: bstorm@wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud-announce.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.3 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8712432623581038340==" Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-MailFrom: cloud-announce-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header Reply-To: cloud@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] Mounts for Scratch NFS changing a bit tomorrow (2021-05-27 around 20:00 UTC) List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> Archived-At: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/message/JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E/ List-Archive: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/ List-Help: mailto:cloud-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=help List-Owner: mailto:cloud-owner@lists.wikimedia.org List-Post: mailto:cloud@lists.wikimedia.org List-Subscribe: mailto:cloud-join@lists.wikimedia.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:cloud-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
It can be that hotmail needs X-BeenThere header which is removed (because it's deprecated in 2007: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailman3_Migration#Email_filters) or the extra headers trigger the hotmail's spam detection. I'm clearly speculating here as I have no knowledge of the internals of hotmail and can't help you in that part but these headers doesn't make mm3 problematic.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:19 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
Trijnstel
*Van:* Leon Haanstra l.haanstra@yahoo.com *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything needs further explaining/better arguments.
Regads,
Natuur12
On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you can disable bounce processing https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/...
From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use that.
HTH
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
Trijnstel
*Van:* Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 *Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com; List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org < listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org> *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
Trijnstel
*Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com *Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org; Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com *Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce score?
I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's fine.
Federico _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- Amir (he/him)
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Hi,
On 6/5/21 5:18 PM, Trijnstel wp wrote:
I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
It's definitely something about the upgrade, the new Mailman3 bounce processor is better in many regards, it processes bounce messages that MM2 missed/skipped/ignored...and it's also somewhat buggy, crashes, slow, etc.
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T282348 has updates just about every week now for all the problems we've been having and firefighting.
I'll make a note to send an email to hotmail once I'm back from vacation.
In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
This is a great idea, I feel silly for not thinking about it earlier. For private lists like CU-l where the subscriber list is carefully managed, bounce processing doesn't provide *that* much benefit vs unsubscribing people who really need to be on the list.
-- Kunal
listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org