On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
Here is a comparison of serif and sans serif typefaces.
This is great, Vibha. I can clearly see that not all serif and sans serif typefaces are alike.
I did know that not all scripts are alike. Can you please provide the same comparison for all these MediaWiki supported scripts, because most were missing? (script codes in ISO 15924[1])
Arab Armn Beng Bugi Cans Cher Cyrl Deva Ethi Geor Goth Grek Gujr Guru Hans Hant Hebr Jpan Kana Khmr Knda Kore Laoo Latn[2] Mlym Mong Mymr Orya Saur Sinh Syrc Taml Telu Tfng Thaa Thai Tibt Yiii
[1] http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html [2] Covered already in previous e-mail.
Cheers!
So, before everyone's snark-o-meter goes off the charts, I think it may help to provide some context for Vibha's email.
It was sent during a design meeting where we were discussing typography and the pros and cons (from a design standpoint) of mixing serif and sans-serif fonts in the same page. Further, the discussion was starting to rathole around "which serif stack to use" and "which sans serif stack to use" and her mail was an attempt to cut through a bikeshed conversation.
We had a short-ish conversation about webfonts and non-Latin scripts - including a bit about how serif/sans-serif is meaningless to most of the scripts in the world, and some discussion about what to do in those cases (I cut that conversation short because we intend to do a deeper dive into i18n issues on Friday, and I wanted to refocus the current topic).
We are looking to you (Siebrand) and Pau to help guide us through the i18n font minefield. I am personally looking forward to this; just as I want everyone thinking "mobile first" I want everyone thinking "i18n first". I want to reduce everyone's frustration factor, and I know that the localization team feels this frustration keenly.
Anyways. That was the context of the email; it was not an attempt to ignore non-Latin scripts or fonts; it was actually an attempt to cut down on bikeshedding.
On Sep 18, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Siebrand Mazeland (WMF) smazeland@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
Here is a comparison of serif and sans serif typefaces.
This is great, Vibha. I can clearly see that not all serif and sans serif typefaces are alike.
I did know that not all scripts are alike. Can you please provide the same comparison for all these MediaWiki supported scripts, because most were missing? (script codes in ISO 15924[1])
--- Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Hey Brandon,
Appreciate your explanation re: Latin-script only discussions around fonts.
We had a short-ish conversation about webfonts and non-Latin scripts - including a bit about how serif/sans-serif is meaningless to most of the scripts in the world, and some discussion about what to do in those cases (I cut that conversation short because we intend to do a deeper dive into i18n issues on Friday, and I wanted to refocus the current topic).
Great to hear that you intend to lead a i18n issues discussion later this week. As you may know, the i18n team has done a fair bit of work with webfonts, fontography, non-Latin scripts and best practices.
We are looking to you (Siebrand) and Pau to help guide us through the i18n font minefield. I am personally looking forward to this; just as I want everyone thinking "mobile first" I want everyone thinking "i18n first". I want to reduce everyone's frustration factor, and I know that the localization team feels this frustration keenly.
I would like the i18n non-Latin team members to also join this discussion to provide context along with Siebrand and Pau.
Anyways. That was the context of the email; it was not an attempt to ignore non-Latin scripts or fonts; it was actually an attempt to cut down on bikeshedding.
Good to know. Thanks, Alolita
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Brandon Harris bharris@wikimedia.org wrote:
So, before everyone's snark-o-meter goes off the charts, I think it may help to provide some context for Vibha's email. It was sent during a design meeting where we were discussing typography and the pros and cons (from a design standpoint) of mixing serif and sans-serif fonts in the same page. Further, the discussion was starting to rathole around "which serif stack to use" and "which sans serif stack to use" and her mail was an attempt to cut through a bikeshed conversation. We had a short-ish conversation about webfonts and non-Latin scripts - including a bit about how serif/sans-serif is meaningless to most of the scripts in the world, and some discussion about what to do in those cases (I cut that conversation short because we intend to do a deeper dive into i18n issues on Friday, and I wanted to refocus the current topic). We are looking to you (Siebrand) and Pau to help guide us through the i18n font minefield. I am personally looking forward to this; just as I want everyone thinking "mobile first" I want everyone thinking "i18n first". I want to reduce everyone's frustration factor, and I know that the localization team feels this frustration keenly. Anyways. That was the context of the email; it was not an attempt to ignore non-Latin scripts or fonts; it was actually an attempt to cut down on bikeshedding.On Sep 18, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Siebrand Mazeland (WMF) smazeland@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
Here is a comparison of serif and sans serif typefaces.
This is great, Vibha. I can clearly see that not all serif and sans serif typefaces are alike.
I did know that not all scripts are alike. Can you please provide the same comparison for all these MediaWiki supported scripts, because most were missing? (script codes in ISO 15924[1])
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Localisation-team mailing list Localisation-team@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/localisation-team
On Sep 18, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Alolita Sharma asharma@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like the i18n non-Latin team members to also join this discussion to provide context along with Siebrand and Pau.
I actually would prefer to keep the number of participants in this conversation small so that we can retain focus. I'm fairly certain that Siebrand has enough vim and vigor about the subject for everyone.
--- Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Another interesting resource for this conversation:
Clicking the info (i inside a circle) shows the % of users on the web (no clue how this is calculated) that have this on their system.
- Trevor
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Brandon Harris bharris@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Sep 18, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Alolita Sharma asharma@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like the i18n non-Latin team members to also join this discussion to provide context along with Siebrand and Pau.
I actually would prefer to keep the number of participants in thisconversation small so that we can retain focus. I'm fairly certain that Siebrand has enough vim and vigor about the subject for everyone.
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
The inclusion of "Helvetica Neue" in the Helvetica and Arial sets makes me doubt the trustworthiness of that resource.
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
On 12-09-19 8:45 AM, Trevor Parscal wrote:
Another interesting resource for this conversation:
Clicking the info (i inside a circle) shows the % of users on the web (no clue how this is calculated) that have this on their system.
- Trevor
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Brandon Harris <bharris@wikimedia.org mailto:bharris@wikimedia.org> wrote:
On Sep 18, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Alolita Sharma <asharma@wikimedia.org <mailto:asharma@wikimedia.org>> wrote: > I would like the i18n non-Latin team members to also join this > discussion to provide context along with Siebrand and Pau. I actually would prefer to keep the number of participants in this conversation small so that we can retain focus. I'm fairly certain that Siebrand has enough vim and vigor about the subject for everyone. --- Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Design@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
It's true, those are different fonts, one being a revised version of the other. But at screen text sizes and similar weights they are quite close, and when aiming to take advantage of consistency across platforms without the use of web fonts I think it's reasonable that they are grouped.
Don't be a type snob. ;)
- Trevor
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Daniel Friesen <daniel@nadir-seen-fire.com
wrote:
The inclusion of "Helvetica Neue" in the Helvetica and Arial sets makes me doubt the trustworthiness of that resource.
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
On 12-09-19 8:45 AM, Trevor Parscal wrote:
Another interesting resource for this conversation:
Clicking the info (i inside a circle) shows the % of users on the web (no clue how this is calculated) that have this on their system.
- Trevor
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Brandon Harris bharris@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Sep 18, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Alolita Sharma asharma@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like the i18n non-Latin team members to also join this discussion to provide context along with Siebrand and Pau.
I actually would prefer to keep the number of participants inthis conversation small so that we can retain focus. I'm fairly certain that Siebrand has enough vim and vigor about the subject for everyone.
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing listDesign@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design