Hi folks,
here's the latest:
* wikivoyage-old.org now works to access the wikis hosted by WV e.V. Those wikis will go into read-only mode post-migration (with the probable exception of the media repositories for purposes such as tagging) and this domain ensures that they'll remain accessible.
* We've signed the agreement with WikiVoyage e.V. to transfer the domain (thanks Hans, Stefan and everyone else involved) and initiated the transfer. Once our registrar inputs the auth code to confirm the change of ownership, WMF will control wikivoyage.org. Initially we will point back to the old sites.
Please let us know if you experience any odd issues in the next couple of days.
* As mentioned before, we're not moving the file repos. Files have to be manually transferred over. If you've not already been involved in this process, now is a good time to get involved. Please see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_f...
and especially the talk page for the community process to transfer files. This can continue well after the migration thanks to WV e.V. continuing to host wikivoyage-old.org.
I know it's painful to start with a lot of red links, but I really think this is the best approach to ensure that files are vetted, uploaded either locally (under EDP) or to Commons, templates and categories cleaned up, etc. I'd suggest running a sitenotice on all wikis asking people to help with this, pointing to the Commons task force.
* Our target date for the switch is Tuesday. I will send another update should that date change. Just before the switch wikis will have to go into read-only mode for at least a few hours to ensure that up-to-date dumps can reliably be produced. Hans will help manage this process.
It's getting exciting :-). Please bear with us as there are almost certainly going to be glitches, frustrations and annoyances. We'll work to fix and improve things as we go.
All best, Erik
I protest against the decision of the Wikimedia Foundation and its representative Erik Möller to do not move the file repositories to the servers of the Wikimedia Foundation. Most of the images in all of the seven language branches will be vanished. The new start at the Wikimedia Foundation will start with a catastrophe, and the authors and readers will be frustrated. This would be a big victory to Internet Brands over Wikivoyage.
We as the Wikivoyage association tried within the last days until yesterday in a direct contact with Erik Möller to prevent this and to establish the repositories maybe for one or two years to have enough time to make the transfers.
With deep regret we have to state the we are not strong enough to prevent this and therefore we had no success. As you know our Wikivoyage admins and programmers were able to make a full transfer from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage. And they made a really good job. An now it's seems that a lot was for nothing.
Yours Roland
----- Original Message ----- From: Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org Date: Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:20 am Subject: [Wikivoyage-l] Updates: wikivoyage-old.org, domain transfer, etc. To: Wikivoyage Mailing List wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi folks,
here's the latest:
- wikivoyage-old.org now works to access the wikis hosted by WV e.V.
Those wikis will go into read-only mode post-migration (with the probable exception of the media repositories for purposes such as tagging) and this domain ensures that they'll remain accessible.
- We've signed the agreement with WikiVoyage e.V. to transfer the
domain (thanks Hans, Stefan and everyone else involved) and initiated the transfer. Once our registrar inputs the auth code to confirm the change of ownership, WMF will control wikivoyage.org. Initially we will point back to the old sites.
Please let us know if you experience any odd issues in the next couple of days.
- As mentioned before, we're not moving the file repos. Files have to
be manually transferred over. If you've not already been involved in this process, now is a good time to get involved. Please see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_f...
and especially the talk page for the community process to transfer files. This can continue well after the migration thanks to WV e.V. continuing to host wikivoyage-old.org.
I know it's painful to start with a lot of red links, but I really think this is the best approach to ensure that files are vetted, uploaded either locally (under EDP) or to Commons, templates and categories cleaned up, etc. I'd suggest running a sitenotice on all wikis asking people to help with this, pointing to the Commons task force.
- Our target date for the switch is Tuesday. I will send another
update should that date change. Just before the switch wikis will have to go into read-only mode for at least a few hours to ensure that up-to-date dumps can reliably be produced. Hans will help manage this process.
It's getting exciting :-). Please bear with us as there are almost certainly going to be glitches, frustrations and annoyances. We'll work to fix and improve things as we go.
All best, Erik
-- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
I agree with Roland that we are not ready to transfer files to Commons until Tuesday.
First, not more than 10 people are sorting and tagging files on wts.wikivoyage. We work like hell, but we simply don't have enough manpower for this huge job. The work at the second repository, wikivoyage.org/shared, has not even started yet.
Second, details of image transfer are not yet settled. Stefan, MGA73, and Magog the Ogre offered their help and very nice scripts that could do things automatically. But every image on Commons requires a sound license information, and we have not even agreed on how to do it, see the discussion at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_ta...
Unless these problems are solved immediately, the launch of "renewed" Wikivoyage is going to be... well, not a catastrophe, but a fail.
-Alexander
On 03/11/2012 12:00, Roland Unger wrote:
I protest against the decision of the Wikimedia Foundation and its representative Erik Möller to do not move the file repositories to the servers of the Wikimedia Foundation. Most of the images in all of the seven language branches will be vanished. The new start at the Wikimedia Foundation will start with a catastrophe, and the authors and readers will be frustrated. This would be a big victory to Internet Brands over Wikivoyage.
We as the Wikivoyage association tried within the last days until yesterday in a direct contact with Erik Möller to prevent this and to establish the repositories maybe for one or two years to have enough time to make the transfers.
With deep regret we have to state the we are not strong enough to prevent this and therefore we had no success. As you know our Wikivoyage admins and programmers were able to make a full transfer from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage. And they made a really good job. An now it's seems that a lot was for nothing.
Yours Roland
----- Original Message ----- From: Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org Date: Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:20 am Subject: [Wikivoyage-l] Updates: wikivoyage-old.org, domain transfer, etc. To: Wikivoyage Mailing List wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi folks,
here's the latest:
- wikivoyage-old.org now works to access the wikis hosted by WV e.V.
Those wikis will go into read-only mode post-migration (with the probable exception of the media repositories for purposes such as tagging) and this domain ensures that they'll remain accessible.
- We've signed the agreement with WikiVoyage e.V. to transfer the
domain (thanks Hans, Stefan and everyone else involved) and initiated the transfer. Once our registrar inputs the auth code to confirm the change of ownership, WMF will control wikivoyage.org. Initially we will point back to the old sites.
Please let us know if you experience any odd issues in the next couple of days.
- As mentioned before, we're not moving the file repos. Files have to
be manually transferred over. If you've not already been involved in this process, now is a good time to get involved. Please see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_f...
and especially the talk page for the community process to transfer files. This can continue well after the migration thanks to WV e.V. continuing to host wikivoyage-old.org.
I know it's painful to start with a lot of red links, but I really think this is the best approach to ensure that files are vetted, uploaded either locally (under EDP) or to Commons, templates and categories cleaned up, etc. I'd suggest running a sitenotice on all wikis asking people to help with this, pointing to the Commons task force.
- Our target date for the switch is Tuesday. I will send another
update should that date change. Just before the switch wikis will have to go into read-only mode for at least a few hours to ensure that up-to-date dumps can reliably be produced. Hans will help manage this process.
It's getting exciting :-). Please bear with us as there are almost certainly going to be glitches, frustrations and annoyances. We'll work to fix and improve things as we go.
All best, Erik
-- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
Yes we need to figure out the images before launch.
James Heilman
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 4:25 AM, Alexander Tsirlin altsirlin@gmail.comwrote:
I agree with Roland that we are not ready to transfer files to Commons until Tuesday.
First, not more than 10 people are sorting and tagging files on wts.wikivoyage. We work like hell, but we simply don't have enough manpower for this huge job. The work at the second repository, wikivoyage.org/shared, has not even started yet.
Second, details of image transfer are not yet settled. Stefan, MGA73, and Magog the Ogre offered their help and very nice scripts that could do things automatically. But every image on Commons requires a sound license information, and we have not even agreed on how to do it, see the discussion at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/**wiki/Commons_talk:Wikitravel_** Shared_transfer_task_force#**Linkbackshttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_force#Linkbacks
Unless these problems are solved immediately, the launch of "renewed" Wikivoyage is going to be... well, not a catastrophe, but a fail.
-Alexander
On 03/11/2012 12:00, Roland Unger wrote:
I protest against the decision of the Wikimedia Foundation and its representative Erik Möller to do not move the file repositories to the servers of the Wikimedia Foundation. Most of the images in all of the seven language branches will be vanished. The new start at the Wikimedia Foundation will start with a catastrophe, and the authors and readers will be frustrated. This would be a big victory to Internet Brands over Wikivoyage.
We as the Wikivoyage association tried within the last days until yesterday in a direct contact with Erik Möller to prevent this and to establish the repositories maybe for one or two years to have enough time to make the transfers.
With deep regret we have to state the we are not strong enough to prevent this and therefore we had no success. As you know our Wikivoyage admins and programmers were able to make a full transfer from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage. And they made a really good job. An now it's seems that a lot was for nothing.
Yours Roland
----- Original Message ----- From: Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org Date: Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:20 am Subject: [Wikivoyage-l] Updates: wikivoyage-old.org, domain transfer, etc. To: Wikivoyage Mailing List <wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi folks,
here's the latest:
- wikivoyage-old.org now works to access the wikis hosted by WV e.V.
Those wikis will go into read-only mode post-migration (with the probable exception of the media repositories for purposes such as tagging) and this domain ensures that they'll remain accessible.
- We've signed the agreement with WikiVoyage e.V. to transfer the
domain (thanks Hans, Stefan and everyone else involved) and initiated the transfer. Once our registrar inputs the auth code to confirm the change of ownership, WMF will control wikivoyage.org. Initially we will point back to the old sites.
Please let us know if you experience any odd issues in the next couple of days.
- As mentioned before, we're not moving the file repos. Files have to
be manually transferred over. If you've not already been involved in this process, now is a good time to get involved. Please see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/**wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_** Shared_transfer_task_forcehttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_force
and especially the talk page for the community process to transfer files. This can continue well after the migration thanks to WV e.V. continuing to host wikivoyage-old.org.
I know it's painful to start with a lot of red links, but I really think this is the best approach to ensure that files are vetted, uploaded either locally (under EDP) or to Commons, templates and categories cleaned up, etc. I'd suggest running a sitenotice on all wikis asking people to help with this, pointing to the Commons task force.
- Our target date for the switch is Tuesday. I will send another
update should that date change. Just before the switch wikis will have to go into read-only mode for at least a few hours to ensure that up-to-date dumps can reliably be produced. Hans will help manage this process.
It's getting exciting :-). Please bear with us as there are almost certainly going to be glitches, frustrations and annoyances. We'll work to fix and improve things as we go.
All best, Erik
-- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.**org/wiki/Donatehttps://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
______________________________**_________________ Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
______________________________**_________________ Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
______________________________**_________________ Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
It seems a wise decision not to mass-import all the media backlog, precisely to reduce future work for the community. Commons will probably allow a bot-import of non-orphan, partly vetted free images which will need some further review but are supposedly ok. Is this discussion happening somewhere? (It's more useful than discussing EDPs or ghost repositories, IMHO.)
Roland Unger, 03/11/2012 11:00:
With deep regret we have to state the we are not strong enough to prevent this and therefore we had no success. As you know our Wikivoyage admins and programmers were able to make a full transfer from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage. And they made a really good job. An now it's seems that a lot was for nothing.
Is there a tarball somewhere, to start with? I'd like to add them to archive.org. I was also unable to find the Wikitravel XML dumps, last time I checked.
Nemo
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:18:00 +0100, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
It seems a wise decision not to mass-import all the media backlog, precisely to reduce future work for the community. Commons will probably allow a bot-import of non-orphan, partly vetted free images which will need some further review but are supposedly ok. Is this discussion happening somewhere? (It's more useful than discussing EDPs or ghost repositories, IMHO.)
Roland Unger, 03/11/2012 11:00:
With deep regret we have to state the we are not strong enough to prevent this and therefore we had no success. As you know our Wikivoyage admins and programmers were able to make a full transfer from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage. And they made a really good job. An now it's seems that a lot was for nothing.
Is there a tarball somewhere, to start with? I'd like to add them to archive.org. I was also unable to find the Wikitravel XML dumps, last time I checked.
Nemo
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
There are currently two places for discussion (check the bottom threads)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_ta...
http://wts.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Travellers%27_pub
One of the technical problems is that wts shared does not show the file usage across the projects, so that we can not really even delete files which are dupes of the Commons files with a different name, because we are not sure about the usage.
Cheers Yaroslav
Yaroslav M. Blanter, 03/11/2012 12:22:
One of the technical problems is that wts shared does not show the file usage across the projects, so that we can not really even delete files which are dupes of the Commons files with a different name, because we are not sure about the usage.
Those seem two different issues. 1) Duplicates: if duplicate detection can't be fixed on wts end, it will show up when you upload duplicates to Commons (not too hard to track down). 2) Unused files: http://en.wikivoyage-old.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WantedFiles&limit... lists also files from shared repositories.
Nemo
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:46:59 +0100, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Those seem two different issues.
- Duplicates: if duplicate detection can't be fixed on wts end, it
will show up when you upload duplicates to Commons (not too hard to track down). 2) Unused files:
http://en.wikivoyage-old.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WantedFiles&limit... lists also files from shared repositories.
Nemo
Thanks. The duplicate detection is fixed from the wts ens, and we have a category of files which are available on Commons with a different names. This is not a problem. The problem is to find out whether they are used on wv. en.wikivoyage-old.org can help indeed but the process is best automated. My understanding is that Stefan is working on this, but I did not yet even start deleting those files since I do not know what the result is.
Cheers Yaroslav
2012/11/3 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
- As mentioned before, we're not moving the file repos. Files have to
be manually transferred over. If you've not already been involved in this process, now is a good time to get involved. Please see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikitravel_Shared_transfer_task_f...
and especially the talk page for the community process to transfer files. This can continue well after the migration thanks to WV e.V. continuing to host wikivoyage-old.org.
I know it's painful to start with a lot of red links, but I really think this is the best approach to ensure that files are vetted, uploaded either locally (under EDP) or to Commons, templates and categories cleaned up, etc. I'd suggest running a sitenotice on all wikis asking people to help with this, pointing to the Commons task force.
Erik, I would like to ask you to re-schedule the migration for some weeks so as to make it possible for the Wikivoyage communities to transfer the files in time for the project launch.
I fully agree to Roland's statement. What you are doing now is against the interest of the community, and I strongly protest against this.
This is a rather bad sign for the start of Wikivoyage as a Wikimedia project as it seems that keeping deadlines matters more to you than communicating and co-operating with the Wikivoyage community.
I am sorry to cut my mail short which is due to a death in my family which keeps me from contributing more these days.
Regards, Jürgen.
On Nov 3, 2012 1:10 PM, "Juergen Fenn" schneeschmelze@googlemail.com wrote:
Erik, I would like to ask you to re-schedule the migration for some weeks so as to make it possible for the Wikivoyage communities to transfer the files in time for the project launch.
I have no problem with that if it's the community's preference. WMF has no stake in meeting any particular deadline. This might delay things significantly though. Hans is planning a lot of travel starting next week, We might be able to schedule a time in December or January for him to assist the transfer (produce anonymized dumps etc.), but I can't promise anything til I have a chance to talk to him.
Once again though-if we migrate next week, all the images will still be accessible via the alternative URL. It won't be pretty at first, but things can be fixed the wiki way.
Erik
2012/11/3 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
Erik, I would like to ask you to re-schedule the migration for some weeks so as to make it possible for the Wikivoyage communities to transfer the files in time for the project launch.
I have no problem with that if it's the community's preference. WMF has no stake in meeting any particular deadline. This might delay things significantly though. Hans is planning a lot of travel starting next week, We might be able to schedule a time in December or January for him to assist the transfer (produce anonymized dumps etc.), but I can't promise anything til I have a chance to talk to him.
Thank you, Erik, for making this clear. I have recommended to the WV community to take their time and transfer the images before migrating the project. We just cannot start without most of the images in WV articles. Period. I very much hope that these problems can be sorted out and resolved soon.
https://www.wikivoyage.org/w/de/index.php?title=Wikivoyage%3ALounge&diff...
Regards, Jürgen.
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it will be much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
James Heilman
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Juergen Fenn schneeschmelze@googlemail.comwrote:
2012/11/3 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
Erik, I would like to ask you to re-schedule the migration for some weeks so as to make it possible for the Wikivoyage communities to transfer the files in time for the project launch.
I have no problem with that if it's the community's preference. WMF has
no
stake in meeting any particular deadline. This might delay things significantly though. Hans is planning a lot of travel starting next
week,
We might be able to schedule a time in December or January for him to
assist
the transfer (produce anonymized dumps etc.), but I can't promise
anything
til I have a chance to talk to him.
Thank you, Erik, for making this clear. I have recommended to the WV community to take their time and transfer the images before migrating the project. We just cannot start without most of the images in WV articles. Period. I very much hope that these problems can be sorted out and resolved soon.
https://www.wikivoyage.org/w/de/index.php?title=Wikivoyage%3ALounge&diff...
Regards, Jürgen.
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
We can than "officially" launch in a month or so after most of the image issues have been dealt with.
James
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 5:16 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it will be much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
James Heilman
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Juergen Fenn < schneeschmelze@googlemail.com> wrote:
2012/11/3 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
Erik, I would like to ask you to re-schedule the migration for some weeks so as to make it possible for the Wikivoyage communities to transfer the files in time for the project launch.
I have no problem with that if it's the community's preference. WMF has
no
stake in meeting any particular deadline. This might delay things significantly though. Hans is planning a lot of travel starting next
week,
We might be able to schedule a time in December or January for him to
assist
the transfer (produce anonymized dumps etc.), but I can't promise
anything
til I have a chance to talk to him.
Thank you, Erik, for making this clear. I have recommended to the WV community to take their time and transfer the images before migrating the project. We just cannot start without most of the images in WV articles. Period. I very much hope that these problems can be sorted out and resolved soon.
https://www.wikivoyage.org/w/de/index.php?title=Wikivoyage%3ALounge&diff...
Regards, Jürgen.
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it will be much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
Just in converse. This is 2012, not Wikipedia in 2001. Quality attracts editors, while red links will deter them. Removing images from the articles would really be a shame.
Regards, Jürgen.
The site is still very much a work in progress. Having it launch in beta as a work in progress IMO will attract editors. I of course have no evidence to back this up :-) But I think we will definitely have an advantage with respect to growth by launching early.
It is a nasty legal environment right now. I do not blame the legal team for being cautious. We have an active group wanting us to fail and wanting to delay the launch as much as possible. If we are clear to our readers that we are not launching as an end product but as a community of editors interested in travel writing trying to get back on their feed my bet is that they will understand.
It still amazes me how many people do not realize that anyone can simply jump in and begin improving WMF wikis. If we add a little note to each of these red links (please help us fix this link, click to figure out how) that goes to a page that explains why thy are red, the issues that have occurred, and how to get involved we can launch with editor recruitment built in.
James
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Juergen Fenn schneeschmelze@googlemail.comwrote:
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it will be much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
Just in converse. This is 2012, not Wikipedia in 2001. Quality attracts editors, while red links will deter them. Removing images from the articles would really be a shame.
Regards, Jürgen.
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
Realistically, the pool of people who will be able to effectively work on the image transfer is limited, and will not include more casual users who notice the red links. We're doing a huge amount of work on the transfer right now, but won't be ready to shut down wts and Shared by Tuesday--that will make it much, much harder to do the necessary work: (1. check and tag images on the original repositories, 2. transfer tagged images to Commons, 3. review transferred images on Commons and make sure they are properly categorized.) Disabling edits to wts and Shared will halt tagging and deletion of irrelevant files there, tying our hands behind our backs.
I also think that people might be underestimating the quality of work done on WV and WT in ensuring that images are not copyright violations. In the thousands of images we've tagged in the past several days, we've really run into only a couple dozen images that required outright deletion. Many images are "not free enough" for Commons, and will need to be transferred to local WV language versions under a non-free content policy (under discussion), but again, this will be an easier task if the repositories are still editable.
I don't really understand why the WMF is unwilling to keep the repositories around while we do all this work (some prior discussion with the community might have acted as a useful sanity check...), but the facts that a read-only status would impede the transfer process and that the site-wide broken image links would make the project look bush league make it seem worth delaying the move to the WMF altogether. Unless the WMF is willing to reconsider how to handle this.
-Peter
On Nov 3, 2012 6:31 PM, "Peter B Fitzgerald" pbf5@georgetown.edu wrote:
Realistically, the pool of people who will be able to effectively work on
the image transfer is limited, and will not include more casual users who notice the red links. We're doing a huge amount of work on the transfer right now, but won't be ready to shut down wts and Shared by Tuesday
They would continue to be accessible via wikivoyage-old.org, and they could continue to be editable (though I would recommend disabling uploads).
Erik
Per "the WMF is unwilling to keep the repositories around while we do all this work". It has been stated that these repositories will stay around and that WV will keep them up and running for months at least. Or have I misunderstood?
Per "a read-only status" being impossed. The recommendation was just to disallow further uploads not to stop editing of the content their from what I understand. But even this is up for discussion. I personally respect greatly the work done by WT and WV editors which is why I have been active as much as I can in this process. The whole Wikimedia movement respect your work which is why they have invited you to join it.
With respect to perfect verses speed agree that we need a balance. I guess the other option we could look at is putting the initial startup in a work space (similar to incubator). With respect to who can help. I am sure that their are many editors on Commons who would be willing to jump in. Have we begun outreach? Do we have a article that lays out the steps required?
James Heilman
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Peter B Fitzgerald pbf5@georgetown.eduwrote:
Realistically, the pool of people who will be able to effectively work on the image transfer is limited, and will not include more casual users who notice the red links. We're doing a huge amount of work on the transfer right now, but won't be ready to shut down wts and Shared by Tuesday--that will make it much, much harder to do the necessary work: (1. check and tag images on the original repositories, 2. transfer tagged images to Commons, 3. review transferred images on Commons and make sure they are properly categorized.) Disabling edits to wts and Shared will halt tagging and deletion of irrelevant files there, tying our hands behind our backs.
I also think that people might be underestimating the quality of work done on WV and WT in ensuring that images are not copyright violations. In the thousands of images we've tagged in the past several days, we've really run into only a couple dozen images that required outright deletion. Many images are "not free enough" for Commons, and will need to be transferred to local WV language versions under a non-free content policy (under discussion), but again, this will be an easier task if the repositories are still editable.
I don't really understand why the WMF is unwilling to keep the repositories around while we do all this work (some prior discussion with the community might have acted as a useful sanity check...), but the facts that a read-only status would impede the transfer process and that the site-wide broken image links would make the project look bush league make it seem worth delaying the move to the WMF altogether. Unless the WMF is willing to reconsider how to handle this.
-Peter
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
Hi all,
you might find this poll graphic from Wikipedia Signpost interesting for your considerations:
Wikivoyage migration:priority
migrate perfectly: 32% migrate quickly: 19% in the timescale and quality we said we would: 41% other: 8%
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Signpost_poll_31_%...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-10-29/Techno...
Thanks to Tilman Bayer for pointing me to it for the current discussion.
Best regards,
Daniel
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
It is a nasty legal environment right now. I do not blame the legal team for being cautious.
+1
It still amazes me how many people do not realize that anyone can simply jump in and begin improving WMF wikis. If we add a little note to each of these red links (please help us fix this link, click to figure out how) that goes to a page that explains why thy are red, the issues that have occurred, and how to get involved we can launch with editor recruitment built in.
It won't work. Think of the readers, please. They will be frustrated to find a wiki without any pictures. That would be a rather bad start indeed. Readers expect the same standard they have come to love from Wikipedia.
As Roland said, at WV they took great care of checking images for copyright issues. What's more, there have been many imports from Commons to WV. I imported several images from Commons for the articles I edited. At least these images could be located and the links could be fixed in order to have the images show in the articles.
Regards, Jürgen.
Yes but we need not launching fully. We could just start in a work space / beta / incubator mode. Where are we at with addressing the image issue? Is their a complete list of images that need to be verified and moved to commons? Have we begun outreach efforts to find people to help with this? I can help out some tonight.
James Heilman
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Juergen Fenn schneeschmelze@googlemail.comwrote:
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
It is a nasty legal environment right now. I do not blame the legal team
for
being cautious.
+1
It still amazes me how many people do not realize that anyone can simply jump in and begin improving WMF wikis. If we add a little note to each of these red links (please help us fix this link, click to figure out how)
that
goes to a page that explains why thy are red, the issues that have
occurred,
and how to get involved we can launch with editor recruitment built in.
It won't work. Think of the readers, please. They will be frustrated to find a wiki without any pictures. That would be a rather bad start indeed. Readers expect the same standard they have come to love from Wikipedia.
As Roland said, at WV they took great care of checking images for copyright issues. What's more, there have been many imports from Commons to WV. I imported several images from Commons for the articles I edited. At least these images could be located and the links could be fixed in order to have the images show in the articles.
Regards, Jürgen.
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
I would tend to agree with those calling for a migration to WMF while they have resources available rather than delaying the migration. We obviously don't want to announce to the world that the new site is up and running if it isn't ready, but if we simply transfer hosts without any major announcements and include site notices that state something like "Help tag/transfer xx,000 images so that Wikivoyage can complete its migration to Wikimedia!" then we may attract experienced help from other Wikimedia projects who read WMF mailing lists and can assist with the process, and we'll also begin getting them familiar with Wikivoyage in the process. Meanwhile we begin benefiting from WMF hosting, software updates, shared infrastructure, shared user accounts, global spam blacklists, etc, etc.
In a perfect world there would be unlimited resources to ensure that everything is transferred flawlessly and the migration is done without anyone noticing, but in the real world it seems (to me) to make more sense to complete the migration while WMF has technical resources available who are focused solely on getting the new site up and running, rather than holding off until a time when we may not have the same resources at our disposal.
My two cents.
Ryan
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it
will be
much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
Just in converse. This is 2012, not Wikipedia in 2001. Quality attracts editors, while red links will deter them. Removing images from the articles would really be a shame.
Regards, Jürgen.
This is really correct. We must attract new readers and authors. This can be done only with a well working site. And we have other competitors, so we must show that we are better. Red links are the opposite to a good site.
Yours Roland
Yes but it will be much easier to fix things if we as volunteers have a place to work. I want to know that the images I move are working and if we have red links seeing them go none red will be proof.
The old wikivoyage will stay running. I am not expecting all the readers to switch right away. We at least need to put this in a work space at the WMF.
James Heilman
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Roland Unger < roland.unger@soziologie.uni-halle.de> wrote:
2012/11/4 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it
will be
much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
Just in converse. This is 2012, not Wikipedia in 2001. Quality attracts editors, while red links will deter them. Removing images from the articles would really be a shame.
Regards, Jürgen.
This is really correct. We must attract new readers and authors. This can be done only with a well working site. And we have other competitors, so we must show that we are better. Red links are the opposite to a good site.
Yours Roland
Wikivoyage-l mailing list Wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l
@ Juergen Why can we not start in "beta"? Once things are live it will be much easier to bring on more people to address the image issue.
James Heilman
Wikivoyage admins showed that it is possible to establish new wikis in a short time under worse condition than WMF now.
Maybe it is a dream to think about a lot of people doing the task of the WMF. At the WMF all projects started with their own comminities without help of others.
If Wikivoyage would be the first travel site around the globe a beta would be possible. But we have a complete wikivoyage-old and wikitravel and others running. The beta version could not be attractive to new authers.
And we have a big outcry at the German community. Please think about the communities. Only strong communities are the key to success.
Yours Roland
wikivoyage-l@lists.wikimedia.org