--- "jacques.divol" jacques.divol@laposte.net wrote:
Le 6 avr. 05, � 09:58, Anthere a �crit :
--- "jacques.divol" jacques.divol@laposte.net
wrote:
i'll try to check and untie the knots, its .... weird the way people had act on the matter wikipedia vs wikinews.
Many french feel very upsets of being forced to accept wikinews from 'foreigners', with rules and ways of making the stuff not very familliars to them. (it's their feeling)
Sad.
but I understand very well their point of view on the mater.
many thinks that wikinews is outside wikipedia
"way
of life" so reject the project (no editor freedom,...)
They forget that If the creator of wikinews, the living WIKI God himself, said something about the way people may write articles, may use a workflow or templates and so on, it's just ideas, draft framework, draft blue print, ... it's not LAW,
it's
just a ... 'what do you think of that' .
i think, am I wrong Erik ??? don't think
I think that polish, french, spanish, italian,
...
wikinews DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW editorial way from ENGLISH or GERMAN editions. -They could find they own ways,
MORE I think that wikinews DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW editorial way from Professional NewsWriters, journalists. -They could find they own ways.
I entirely agree with you Jacques.
However, when you claim that neutrality is not a universal concept, is purely an american concept, should not influence the way of writing in a
french
speaking website. And that lastly, the current
NPOV
might even be illegal in France... Sorry, but I
find
this a bit worrying.
While there are rules which should absolutely be local, other principles should not. I am currently
a
bit perplex.
Ant
Thanks Ant,
-Yes I claim, read some Jack Vance, Ursula Le Guin (...) Sci-Fi books, you'll understand that Universality Concept is not Universal at all, it's a concept no more.
I disagree. The concept of neutrality first come from people and how they are 1) able to perceive what is happening around them, 2) adopt an attitude which makes them able to distinguish a fact from an opinion and 3) be able to report facts as facts and opinions as opinions; it is totally unrelated to a country or to a nationality.
-yes, NPOV is not so legal in France, but don't worry.
I do not worry about this. Wikinews is not a french project from France. It is not written by french from France, for french from France; It is a project in french language.
-Each one is responsible in France (more or less ok)
As long as we stick to the current neutrality rules, I doubt much our government would ever dare declaring us illegal.
For example : Nazi party is ILLEGAL in France, as well supporting this kind of ideas, its not the case in the USA (first Amendment), and so on...
You have not understood what neutrality is about I think. Neutrality is not supporting the Nazi party, it is not supporting this kind of idea, neutrality is just saying what the Nazi party is (or was), what the Nazi party plateform was, to explain who is a supporter this party, who is involved in this party, how, and if necessary, to cite some of the words said by someone belonging to this party.
I think none of this is illegal in France. It is illegal to promote these ideas, but it is not forbidden to talk about it in an unbaised way.
In comparison (since it was mentionned that french Wikinews could be similar to Indymedia), Indymedia supports certain ideas. I do not think Wikinews should do that.
The worst in fact in france is about copyright and the stuff author rights... , but you already know i hope It's a problem for all wiki sub-domain: so for wikinews:fr it is states that all the writing is PUBLIC DOMAIN.
This is absolutely NOT the reason why fr wikinews is currently in public domain.
... other wise you need a contract, something writen that the author leave all his (her) rights upon the 'work'.
There is somehow such a contract with wikipedians, who agree to release their work under a free licence. It does not mean they leave ALL their rights.
Under public domain, they do.
(it's complexe when money(or possible virtual futur value) is involved . you know what I mean, could kill friendship,familly and love...),
Frankly, no, I do not see what it is killing.
french government wants it's share too...(taxes,...) and when it's FREE no taxes !
Sorry, but this does not make much sense to me. Could you elaborate ?
jacques
sorry for my free way of writing, I am not so easy in English ((ok best than most french people) and it's hell when i speak !
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Le 6 avr. 05, à 14:06, Anthere a écrit :
--- "jacques.divol" jacques.divol@laposte.net wrote:
Le 6 avr. 05, à 09:58, Anthere a écrit :
--- "jacques.divol" jacques.divol@laposte.net
wrote:
i'll try to check and untie the knots, its .... weird the way people had act on the matter wikipedia vs wikinews.
Many french feel very upsets of being forced to accept wikinews from 'foreigners', with rules and ways of making the stuff not very familliars to them. (it's their feeling)
Sad.
but I understand very well their point of view on the mater.
many thinks that wikinews is outside wikipedia
"way
of life" so reject the project (no editor freedom,...)
They forget that If the creator of wikinews, the living WIKI God himself, said something about the way people may write articles, may use a workflow or templates and so on, it's just ideas, draft framework, draft blue print, ... it's not LAW,
it's
just a ... 'what do you think of that' .
i think, am I wrong Erik ??? don't think
I think that polish, french, spanish, italian,
...
wikinews DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW editorial way from ENGLISH or GERMAN editions. -They could find they own ways,
MORE I think that wikinews DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW editorial way from Professional NewsWriters, journalists. -They could find they own ways.
I entirely agree with you Jacques.
However, when you claim that neutrality is not a universal concept, is purely an american concept, should not influence the way of writing in a
french
speaking website. And that lastly, the current
NPOV
might even be illegal in France... Sorry, but I
find
this a bit worrying.
While there are rules which should absolutely be local, other principles should not. I am currently
a
bit perplex.
Ant
Thanks Ant,
-Yes I claim, read some Jack Vance, Ursula Le Guin (...) Sci-Fi books, you'll understand that Universality Concept is not Universal at all, it's a concept no more.
I disagree. The concept of neutrality first come from people and how they are 1) able to perceive what is happening around them, 2) adopt an attitude which makes them able to distinguish a fact from an opinion and 3) be able to report facts as facts and opinions as opinions; it is totally unrelated to a country or to a nationality.
... my view : I'll always remember this girl blocked under tree during a flood in South America,
but it's just to argue, as I understand and try in my contribution in wikinews to do be RIGHT more than NEUTRAL.
opinions and facts changes always by country and education level. even the words used to speak of events change.
-> My previous work was about interactive knowledge building ... ;)
remember : It's the winner who writes History.
many historical facts in one country are lies for others - i have a big list - thanks the Cold War. (Cuba Crisis, Vietnam warstarting, El Chile, Algeria War,,...)
-yes, NPOV is not so legal in France, but don't worry.
I do not worry about this. Wikinews is not a french project from France. It is not written by french from France, for french from France; It is a project in french language.
i agree, but some could argue ...
-Each one is responsible in France (more or less ok)
As long as we stick to the current neutrality rules, I doubt much our government would ever dare declaring us illegal.
yes, but i remember how "-e-government" begun in France ... sad story.
For example : Nazi party is ILLEGAL in France, as well supporting this kind of ideas, its not the case in the USA (first Amendment), and so on...
You have not understood what neutrality is about I think. Neutrality is not supporting the Nazi party, it is not supporting this kind of idea, neutrality is just saying what the Nazi party is (or was), what the Nazi party plateform was, to explain who is a supporter this party, who is involved in this party, how, and if necessary, to cite some of the words said by someone belonging to this party.
I think none of this is illegal in France. It is illegal to promote these ideas, but it is not forbidden to talk about it in an unbaised way.
In comparison (since it was mentionned that french Wikinews could be similar to Indymedia), Indymedia supports certain ideas. I do not think Wikinews should do that.
i agree (more or less) - as "a free accessible encyclopedia" is a progressist idea, not a conservative idea in any country.
I don't think that a Human Being could be neutral. We are all driven by our specific education, fear and likeness
an extrem example : why pornography is forbiden into commons.wikipedia ??? it's NOT NEUTRAL !
an extrem exemple : why bomb making instruction should be forbidden ? others exemple could be found.
Even Human Right is not neutral at all
If you begin to think : "If I show this painting , speak of that subject, i'll hurt this category of people, this country or this religion" . And so i do not show, speak or write and change my mind, it's not right or neutral.
The worst in fact in france is about copyright and the stuff author rights... , but you already know i hope It's a problem for all wiki sub-domain: so for wikinews:fr it is states that all the writing is PUBLIC DOMAIN.
This is absolutely NOT the reason why fr wikinews is currently in public domain.
explain? i do not see other ways with the French law.
... other wise you need a contract, something writen that the author leave all his (her) rights upon the 'work'.
There is somehow such a contract with wikipedians, who agree to release their work under a free licence. It does not mean they leave ALL their rights.
Under public domain, they do.
not really in France : there''s 2 kind of right : - one : Usage right often with money -second : the Moral Right
the Moral Right could NEVER be alienated by any way. the Usage right could be given freely with resignation (and 75 years after the death of the author in France, no end in Mexico if i am right)
(it's complexe when money(or possible virtual futur value) is involved . you know what I mean, could kill friendship,familly and love...),
Frankly, no, I do not see what it is killing.
i hope you never fight your brother or your sister because you inherit something she (or he) wants... When something get value, some people change , a kind of gold-fever.
french government wants it's share too...(taxes,...) and when it's FREE no taxes !
Sorry, but this does not make much sense to me. Could you elaborate ?
In France when you sell/rent something you should do this a fair, normal price otherwise you could have problems. (it's off-topic i think).
One last thing, all this arging is to test point of view of people of course, no more, it's not to fire the list.
It's difficulte to create a good wikinews as there's NO real exemple of true neutral news in the Real Reality... but as sadly people micmics 'professionals' journalists. difficult tasks.
:) Jacques
Hi,
Le Wednesday 6 April 2005 15:12, jacques.divol a écrit :
remember : It's the winner who writes History.
It's less and true. Wikipedia and Wikinews may be tools to change that. That's why there are very interesting projects, imho.
not really in France : there''s 2 kind of right :
- one : Usage right often with money
-second : the Moral Right
the Moral Right could NEVER be alienated by any way.
Becareful, that Wikinews is not under French law. The main law to apply is American law, and there is no such thing as "moral right" in American copyright law.
the Usage right could be given freely with resignation (and 75 years after the death of the author in France,
70 years in Europe. 95 years in USA.
One last thing, all this arging is to test point of view of people of course, no more, it's not to fire the list.
It's difficulte to create a good wikinews as there's NO real exemple of true neutral news in the Real Reality... but as sadly people micmics 'professionals' journalists. difficult tasks.
:)
Jacques
I am also from France, and interested by the idea of Wikinews. But there are so many things to do, and not enough time. I think that the French project was started a bit too early. With the French language Wikipedia soon getting 100,000 articles, we can start a promotion campaign and use it to promote Wikinews at the same time.
Regards, Yann
Le 6 avr. 05, à 16:43, Yann Forget a écrit :
Hi,
Le Wednesday 6 April 2005 15:12, jacques.divol a écrit :
remember : It's the winner who writes History.
It's less and true. Wikipedia and Wikinews may be tools to change that. That's why there are very interesting projects, imho.
:) yes, very true !
not really in France : there''s 2 kind of right :
- one : Usage right often with money
-second : the Moral Right
the Moral Right could NEVER be alienated by any way.
Becareful, that Wikinews is not under French law. The main law to apply is American law, and there is no such thing as "moral right" in American copyright law.
in French (and a bit english) : a young guy i met : http://soufron.free.fr/soufron-spip/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=12 I do not think it's this simple (I hope it is)
the Usage right could be given freely with resignation (and 75 years after the death of the author in France,
70 years in Europe. 95 years in USA.
One last thing, all this arging is to test point of view of people of course, no more, it's not to fire the list.
It's difficulte to create a good wikinews as there's NO real exemple of true neutral news in the Real Reality... but as sadly people micmics 'professionals' journalists. difficult tasks.
:)
Jacques
I am also from France, and interested by the idea of Wikinews. But there are so many things to do, and not enough time. I think that the French project was started a bit too early. With the French language Wikipedia soon getting 100,000 articles, we can start a promotion campaign and use it to promote Wikinews at the same time.
Regards, Yann
salut Yann, (hi Yann - )
I think it's impossible for one personne to have "serious" activity on ALL wiki domains at one time.
Myself, I target on wikinews and if needed i correct or fillfull an hole on Commons, or Wikipedia I can't do more and it's already to much as i am ALONE, mainly unique contributor on wikinews. (yes, i try not to be too hard with myself when I am not so NEUTRAL... schizophrenia ?)
"French project was started a bit too early ???" yes may be or may be ...
... in France , we have- a not so bad - press and news network so we do not feel the need of wikinews. but I think, it's an illusion.
I don't mind REUTER, AP, or AFP when a journalist speak of death of Prince Rainier but i want to see the official "Communiqué de Presse" - Press message ?? the same the "WOLFKSTEENE" Article (Directive ??) I want to see the orginal paper not CNN in order to try to understand by myself (this is the TRUE neutrality for a news); I don't need more.
FACT yes, but people (and worst journalists) forget the meaning...
a FACT is not from news network, it's outside or before.
About the promotion, i do not know
:)
a++ (see you)
jacques
(i know Shannon laws.)
wikinews-l@lists.wikimedia.org