Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with * Changes to the table of contents * Changes to thumbnails * A cleanup of external links.
What should we do with these remaining changes? We could either 1) Package them into a single new beta feature 2) Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external links tweaks 3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints) 4) Throw them away
Thoughts?
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
- Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any
complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
On 14-03-28 05:02 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson wrote:
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#TOC_broken * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#I_don.27t_l...
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg. http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
I still suggest using this code, which results in this look: http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png * Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and dot-suffixes */ .tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." } .tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
-----
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity? (ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a different set of icons: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_link_icons&uses...
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons. I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
On 14-03-28 05:02 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson wrote:
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
Archive_2#TOC_broken
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg. http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
I still suggest using this code, which results in this look: http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
- Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */ .tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." } .tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/ pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity? (ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a different set of icons: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_ link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons. I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
I think James's suggestions are good, perhaps we could go further with the image changes (I'll find my conversation with the multimedia team) and roll it out as a small beta feature owned by that team?
We can talk further with the multimedia PM?
Sent while mobile
On Mar 28, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote: First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
On 14-03-28 05:02 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson wrote:
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
- https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#TOC_broken
- https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#I_don.27t_l...
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg. http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
I still suggest using this code, which results in this look: http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
- Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." } .tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity? (ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a different set of icons: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_link_icons&uses...
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons. I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation
M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.org wrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700"> > I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big > deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman < jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org> wrote:
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers, Katie
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.orgwrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700"> > I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big > deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Katie, can you send a before and after screenshot, or links to them, since this is a visual issue (on a design list) thanks!
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation
M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Katie Filbert katie.filbert@wikimedia.dewrote:
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman < jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org> wrote:
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers, Katie
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.orgwrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700"> > I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big > deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
-- Katie Filbert Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23 855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Jared Zimmerman < jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Katie, can you send a before and after screenshot, or links to them, since this is a visual issue (on a design list) thanks!
http://snag.gy/Pr5Le.jpg (before)
http://snag.gy/JniR8.jpg (after)
Cheers, Katie
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Katie Filbert < katie.filbert@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman < jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org> wrote:
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers, Katie
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.orgwrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700"> > I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big > deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
-- Katie Filbert Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23 855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
PS. I'll need to read through the village pump to understand the other issues and not sure what/how I can help with those.
generally, the new design for the TOC seems nice.
Cheers, Katie
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Katie Filbert katie.filbert@wikimedia.dewrote:
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman < jared.zimmerman@wikimedia.org> wrote:
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers, Katie
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.orgwrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700"> > I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big > deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in time...)
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
-- Katie Filbert Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23 855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
<quote name="Jared Zimmerman" date="2014-03-28" time="22:52:24 -0700">
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Yeah, as I was laying down for bed after sending this (I felt sick yesterday) I thought how my message was only 25% worth it :)
So, why:
Because the numbering helps me quickly scan pages like: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Release_and_QA_Team
Since TypoRefresh is gone from mw.org, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Greg_%28WMF%29/Example
And now I can't easily find the other pages that looked bad for me because TypoRefresh isn't there (all on mw.org...) But basically any pages that heavily use outlines (3 or so levels deep), like is common on documentation/work pages (not as common on encyclopedia articles). Sphinx (the python doc generator) does the same, see eg: http://docs.python.org/2.7/library/index.html
Even the PHP manual gives you a visual anchor (the bullet): http://www.php.net/manual/en/
Summary: When there are many sub-sections listed on a page, it causes the TOC to have a ton of sub-bullets. The human eye (at least mine, and I think others based on some of the feedback on this) likes to have something to hold on to as it scrolls down (bullet, number, something) not white space, so that it doesn't lose/forget which level of indentation it was it. To wit: I find myself very confused when looking at eg the Rel&QA team page above because of the lack of grounding on the left.
Because of that, I'd strongly advice against the TOC change be included on mw.org since mw.org is definitely in group A (docs) not group B (encyc).
On 29/03/14 05:52, Jared Zimmerman wrote:
"For what it's worth" Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why it was an issue for you. :)
Quiddity already suggested a fix and explained why it would be an issue; this was dismissed as 'nitpicky'. Greg was giving an example of how it is not just being nitpicky, but negatively impacts usability.
-I
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 2:36 AM, Quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
On 14-03-28 05:02 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson wrote:
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
Archive_2#TOC_broken
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg. http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
I still suggest using this code, which results in this look: http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
- Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */ .tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." } .tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
While maybe not perfect, something like that seems ok to me, makes the TOC less radical of a change and think the community would be more agreeable to the change.
Perhaps further iterations and design tweaks can happen at a later stage.
Cheers, Katie
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/ pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity? (ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a different set of icons: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_ link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons. I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Thinking about this more.... I think there will be (if not already) quite a number of community members who argue that changing the design of the TOC doesn't fit as part of a typography update.
I'm not exactly sure the plans for deploying things for default and if it include TOC?
If it is included, it might cause more trouble for the overall update. Maybe there will be a second phase of design updates that can include TOC?
Cheers, Katie
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Katie Filbert katie.filbert@wikimedia.dewrote:
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 2:36 AM, Quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
On 14-03-28 05:02 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Jon Robson wrote:
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
Archive_2#TOC_broken
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg. http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
I still suggest using this code, which results in this look: http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
- Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */ .tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." } .tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
While maybe not perfect, something like that seems ok to me, makes the TOC less radical of a change and think the community would be more agreeable to the change.
Perhaps further iterations and design tweaks can happen at a later stage.
Cheers, Katie
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/ pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity? (ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a different set of icons: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_ link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons. I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
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-- Katie Filbert Wikidata Developer
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Quiddity, 29/03/2014 02:36:
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
It's now at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive_124#New_image_thumb_design.
And while I'm at it: I've only seen positive comments about Edokter's thumbnail change; please file in bugzilla+gerrit for core so that it's not forgotten. To have additional feedback you could then make the gadget default on en.wiki (now that it wouldn't be in the way for alternative changes), you know better what's the local process for that.
Nemo
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui
Sent while mobile
On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:20 AM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Quiddity, 29/03/2014 02:36:
First, the happy feedback: The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
It's now at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive_124#New_image_thumb_design.
And while I'm at it: I've only seen positive comments about Edokter's thumbnail change; please file in bugzilla+gerrit for core so that it's not forgotten. To have additional feedback you could then make the gadget default on en.wiki (now that it wouldn't be in the way for alternative changes), you know better what's the local process for that.
Nemo
_______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Jared Zimmerman, 04/04/2014 10:51:
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui
I don't know who is "we" but Edokter's style is certainly a valid enhancement request that should be addressed in bugzilla.
Nemo
Nemo, when I say we, I mean the people responsible for the look and implementation of mediawiki.ui I've also been informed by the developers that drop shadows like the one proposed have a serious performance impact, especially on older browsers. The proposed style shown in the typography refresh is much simpler from a code perspective as well.
*Jared Zimmerman * \ Director of User Experience \ Wikimedia Foundation
M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmermanhttps://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
Jared Zimmerman, 04/04/2014 10:51:
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in
the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui
I don't know who is "we" but Edokter's style is certainly a valid enhancement request that should be addressed in bugzilla.
Nemo
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
On 28 March 2014 16:58, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with
- Changes to the table of contents
- Changes to thumbnails
- A cleanup of external links.
What should we do with these remaining changes? We could either
- Package them into a single new beta feature
- Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector
table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external links tweaks 3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints) 4) Throw them away
I think that the image changes should probably be a new BF ("Simpler images" or something), as it needs some thought about changing wikitext (and implementation for non-Vector skins). (Option 2)
The TOC and external link changes should just be made as patches to Vector PDQ (Option 3); really it's going to be very confusing to add, remove, and then re-add these changes for users who are opted-in.
J.
In which case why didn't we just push the changes with everything else? We must have seen some reason for them to keep out of the typography release... was there?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: James Forrester jforrester@wikimedia.org Date: Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [Design] Typography update leftovers To: "A list for the design team." design@lists.wikimedia.org
On 28 March 2014 16:58, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with
- Changes to the table of contents
- Changes to thumbnails
- A cleanup of external links.
What should we do with these remaining changes? We could either
- Package them into a single new beta feature
- Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector
table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external links tweaks 3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints) 4) Throw them away
I think that the image changes should probably be a new BF ("Simpler images" or something), as it needs some thought about changing wikitext (and implementation for non-Vector skins). (Option 2)
The TOC and external link changes should just be made as patches to Vector PDQ (Option 3); really it's going to be very confusing to add, remove, and then re-add these changes for users who are opted-in.
J.
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
In which case why didn't we just push the changes with everything else? We must have seen some reason for them to keep out of the typography release... was there?
Yes. I brought this up publicly two weeks ago at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh#Latest_release and we've discussed it internally as an option since we started talking about release in core.
In retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include those features in the first place. From the start till now, I've heard pretty much universal agreement from the community that, even if they were welcomed by some, these felt like scope creep and confused users as to the nature of the typography refresh. I disagreed at the time when we launched them, since I think they're the kind of cleanup that helps improve legibility and put content first. But users don't really see it that way in a lot of cases. They expected a "typography refresh" to only include type changes.