Flagging this bug for the folks on this list: "Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default" https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912
To be clear, I know about ongoing work to develop and implement visual identity guidelines. The bug above is related but much narrower in scope, referring specifically to a problem incurred as a side-effect of the popularity of MediaWiki as a platform.
--- Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product. That said I do think there is value in the default install skin on mediawiki differing from that of Wikipedia, it waters down the brand.
The problem with simultaneously maintaining development on the Wikipedia skin and a second "equally good but different" skin for distribution as her default skin for a mediawiki install is that it is a lot of overhead, certainly more than we can handle right now. The other question is how different do they have to be, a brand isn't just a logo and name it's the entire look and feel. Does mediawiki need their own?
It's a problem that I don't have a clear answer for just yet but something that we should think about.
Sent while mobile
On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:30 PM, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
Flagging this bug for the folks on this list: "Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default" https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912
To be clear, I know about ongoing work to develop and implement visual identity guidelines. The bug above is related but much narrower in scope, referring specifically to a problem incurred as a side-effect of the popularity of MediaWiki as a platform.
Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman jzimmerman@wikimedia.orgwrote:
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.
I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.
I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is being cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the skin default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another.
This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme between sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get confused as to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance.
Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by admins using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today.
- Trevor
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman <jzimmerman@wikimedia.org
wrote:
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.
I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
So.. what do we need to do, to do this?
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal tparscal@wikimedia.org wrote:
I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is being cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the skin default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another.
This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme between sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get confused as to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance.
Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by admins using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today.
- Trevor
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman jzimmerman@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.
I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
SASS in ResourceLoader would nice, but requires bundling https://github.com/richthegeek/phpsass with MediaWiki.
In the mean time we could have a ResourceLoader module for Vector that is generated (like the way we generate CSS modules for user preferences) and bundled with the existing vector CSS.
Since we want to evolve Vector, the visual elements that differ between deployment and default may change over time, but for now I would suggest that the blue lines are fairly distinctive and could perhaps be adjusted pretty easily for the main skin.
Perhaps we should come up with a general purpose theme parameters configuration or class or something to control the values.
- Trevor
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
So.. what do we need to do, to do this?
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal tparscal@wikimedia.org wrote:
I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is
being
cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the
skin
default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another.
This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme
between
sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get
confused as
to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance.
Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by
admins
using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today.
- Trevor
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman jzimmerman@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.
I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal:
identify
a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants
(like
two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar),
and
choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You
can
include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't
styled
the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and
useable
and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide
defaults
that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Someone really needs to create that RFC for Less/SASS support (and we need to decide which to go with). I think using such a thing would make all this and more so much easier.. Any takers? I would but I've got a busy week before I disappear on vacation on Friday...
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Trevor Parscal tparscal@wikimedia.org wrote:
SASS in ResourceLoader would nice, but requires bundling https://github.com/richthegeek/phpsass with MediaWiki.
In the mean time we could have a ResourceLoader module for Vector that is generated (like the way we generate CSS modules for user preferences) and bundled with the existing vector CSS.
Since we want to evolve Vector, the visual elements that differ between deployment and default may change over time, but for now I would suggest that the blue lines are fairly distinctive and could perhaps be adjusted pretty easily for the main skin.
Perhaps we should come up with a general purpose theme parameters configuration or class or something to control the values.
- Trevor
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
So.. what do we need to do, to do this?
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal tparscal@wikimedia.org wrote:
I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is being cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the skin default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another.
This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme between sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get confused as to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance.
Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by admins using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today.
- Trevor
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman jzimmerman@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.
I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
I agree with the others in this thread, it seems like a great idea.
A little extension in the default install with which one can change some base colours sounds like a good idea too.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Jon Robson wrote:
So.. what do we need to do, to do this?
I'd guess that would be best discussed at the bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912
Hi all,
I shared this thread with Jay Walsh, as maintaining the various brand identities rests in many ways with him, so I thought he might be interested or able to add to this discussion.
It's quite interesting and has potential. Thanks!!
Heather
Can someone add Jay to the list, or is this a public add-yourself situation?
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Nick White nick.white@durham.ac.ukwrote:
I agree with the others in this thread, it seems like a great idea.
A little extension in the default install with which one can change some base colours sounds like a good idea too.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Jon Robson wrote:
So.. what do we need to do, to do this?
I'd guess that would be best discussed at the bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Heather Walls hwalls@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Can someone add Jay to the list, or is this a public add-yourself situation?
Anyone can subscribe at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
That's really interesting, could you give me more references on visual identity guidelines?
I'm currently working on the french wikiversity design, where a lot a "emphase box" are used. The help page [1] will give you an idea of how they look. I already began to switch some of them to a new theme[2] I designed and that the community accepted (they only reduced the icon size).
But now I think that the whole "box everywhere" thing was not the way to go, so I made a new proposition[3] which only use a left dark margin and a simple icon, like those from the noun project. I'm waiting comunity feedback on this proposition, and even if it's targeted to the french wikiversity, feel free to provide me some. You probably don't need to understand french to have a look and have an opinion. ;)
[1] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Aide:Liste_des_mod%C3%A8les_de_cadres [2] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Mod%C3%A8le:Emphase [2] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Projet:Wikiversit%C3%A9/Refonte_des_mod%C3%A...
https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Projet:Wikiversit%C3%A9/Refonte_des_mod%C3%A...
Le 2013-07-24 00:30, Ori Livneh a écrit :
Flagging this bug for the folks on this list: "Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default" https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912 [1]
To be clear, I know about ongoing work to develop and implement visual identity guidelines. The bug above is related but much narrower in scope, referring specifically to a problem incurred as a side-effect of the popularity of MediaWiki as a platform.
Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org
Links:
[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design