I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept...
Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices.
In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected.
To quote http://www.upassoc.org/upa_publications/jus/2011august/faulkner2.html "... Kingsburg and Andre carried out two studies with 16 users and found in both of their studies that selection from a left-hand menu was faster than from a right-hand menu (2004). However, their research also showed that selections were best done from the same panel, whether that was on the right or left. Thus it is better to have a single design, either on the left or the right, rather than a mixed navigational method that requires the user to select from both left and right panels (Kingsburg & Andre, 2004). This is hardly surprising and is both predicted and supported by Fitts’ Law. (1954)."
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort.
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Maryana Pinchuk mpinchuk@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Apr 24, 2013, at 2:37 PM, Juliusz Gonera jgonera@wikimedia.org wrote:
My only concern about the right nav is that we might be moving too many things there. I think that people might be confused by not seeing e.g. Settings after tapping the hamburger (the mingle card mentions it in the right nav). Also, settings are currently tied to the device, not the user.
I had the same hesitation with settings, actually. I think you're right that the way we use settings currently is more like "site-wide settings" than "my personal preferences" and thus belongs in the left nav. But at some future date, we could also add personal user preferences to the right nav :)
On Apr 25, 2013 10:39 AM, "Jon Robson" jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
When I hit our left nav menu my finger is now over the Home menu ... Tapping twice sends me to the main page, which drives me nuts. :)
-- brion
On 04/25/2013 11:17 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
On Apr 25, 2013 10:39 AM, "Jon Robson" <jrobson@wikimedia.org mailto:jrobson@wikimedia.org> wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
When I hit our left nav menu my finger is now over the Home menu ... Tapping twice sends me to the main page, which drives me nuts. :)
We could possibly prevent this by removing the lag between clicking the hamburger and the menu showing up. I tried using touchend for that but weird things happened on some browsers (Home being auto-clicked after the menu opened because click event fired after the hamburger icon was already in a different position).
Reposting after subscribing to the design list.
On 04/25/2013 10:39 AM, Jon Robson wrote:
I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept...
Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices.
I agree with everything, but "raging hatred" :)
In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected.
Or possibly have some menu options hidden? Sort them by what user taps most often (or would it be confusing?). Or maybe just do what we first thought about and divide the menu into two sections for now (even without section titles, they don't seem necessary). There's still some room in the menu on a typical smartphone screen.
I would still reserve the space on the right side for something like notifications icon (like this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Athena-Wikimania-2012-Echo-BrandonHarris.... but more mobile friendly).
Also, when you say Facebook do you mean their mobile web site or the app? The site doesn't have any right menu for menu so I guess the latter.
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
I don't understand. When I press our current hamburger, the page moves to the right and my finger is over the Home button...
It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort.
I'm not saying that I'd like them to be using position: fixed, but it's been really bothering me for a long time that we can't use it reliably. I propose a spike to check again if there is a good solution to this problem (maybe a JS lib) or how difficult it would be to implement a fallback (recalculating position on scroll). Should I write a Mingle card?
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept...
Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices.
In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected.
To quote http://www.upassoc.org/upa_publications/jus/2011august/faulkner2.html "... Kingsburg and Andre carried out two studies with 16 users and found in both of their studies that selection from a left-hand menu was faster than from a right-hand menu (2004). However, their research also showed that selections were best done from the same panel, whether that was on the right or left. Thus it is better to have a single design, either on the left or the right, rather than a mixed navigational method that requires the user to select from both left and right panels (Kingsburg & Andre, 2004). This is hardly surprising and is both predicted and supported by Fitts’ Law. (1954)."
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort.
Is it just the "nav" part that bothers you, and not so much the "right" and "my stuff" part? What if we had a little person icon to the right of the search bar, and tapping that opened an overlay with pretty visualizations of your recent editing and uploading activity, as well as links to your watchlist and talk page? *That's* what I ultimately want to work toward; in my mind, the nav part was always just a stepping stone, but maybe we don't actually need that stepping stone and can just go directly to (sneakily) beginning work on a totally new, totally rad mobile userspace :)
At this point we should be doing this at a whiteboard. There are some legitimate concerns but text is hardly a medium to improve ideas =]
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Maryana Pinchuk mpinchuk@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.orgwrote:
I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept...
Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices.
In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected.
To quote http://www.upassoc.org/upa_publications/jus/2011august/faulkner2.html "... Kingsburg and Andre carried out two studies with 16 users and found in both of their studies that selection from a left-hand menu was faster than from a right-hand menu (2004). However, their research also showed that selections were best done from the same panel, whether that was on the right or left. Thus it is better to have a single design, either on the left or the right, rather than a mixed navigational method that requires the user to select from both left and right panels (Kingsburg & Andre, 2004). This is hardly surprising and is both predicted and supported by Fitts’ Law. (1954)."
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort.
Is it just the "nav" part that bothers you, and not so much the "right" and "my stuff" part? What if we had a little person icon to the right of the search bar, and tapping that opened an overlay with pretty visualizations of your recent editing and uploading activity, as well as links to your watchlist and talk page? *That's* what I ultimately want to work toward; in my mind, the nav part was always just a stepping stone, but maybe we don't actually need that stepping stone and can just go directly to (sneakily) beginning work on a totally new, totally rad mobile userspace :)
-- Maryana Pinchuk Associate Product Manager, Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
You're right, Vibha; a picture is worth a thousand words :)
Jon, ignoring the specific elements of what's in the "me" menu (all just placeholders at this point), does my scribbling below make more sense conceptually? Despite the "nav" in the title, the story card actually leaves implementation pretty open: https://mingle.corp.wikimedia.org/projects/mobile/cards/579. I can clarify in the title of the card and the A.C. that this should be an overlay, not a nav. Does that address some of your concerns?
[image: Inline image 1]
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Vibha Bamba vbamba@wikimedia.org wrote:
At this point we should be doing this at a whiteboard. There are some legitimate concerns but text is hardly a medium to improve ideas =]
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Maryana Pinchuk mpinchuk@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.orgwrote:
I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept...
Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices.
In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected.
To quote http://www.upassoc.org/upa_publications/jus/2011august/faulkner2.html "... Kingsburg and Andre carried out two studies with 16 users and found in both of their studies that selection from a left-hand menu was faster than from a right-hand menu (2004). However, their research also showed that selections were best done from the same panel, whether that was on the right or left. Thus it is better to have a single design, either on the left or the right, rather than a mixed navigational method that requires the user to select from both left and right panels (Kingsburg & Andre, 2004). This is hardly surprising and is both predicted and supported by Fitts’ Law. (1954)."
The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky.
It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort.
Is it just the "nav" part that bothers you, and not so much the "right" and "my stuff" part? What if we had a little person icon to the right of the search bar, and tapping that opened an overlay with pretty visualizations of your recent editing and uploading activity, as well as links to your watchlist and talk page? *That's* what I ultimately want to work toward; in my mind, the nav part was always just a stepping stone, but maybe we don't actually need that stepping stone and can just go directly to (sneakily) beginning work on a totally new, totally rad mobile userspace :)
-- Maryana Pinchuk Associate Product Manager, Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
That's more like it ;) Also, I'd squeeze in a few most recent notifications in there when we have Echo.
On 04/25/2013 12:11 PM, Maryana Pinchuk wrote:
You're right, Vibha; a picture is worth a thousand words :)
Jon, ignoring the specific elements of what's in the "me" menu (all just placeholders at this point), does my scribbling below make more sense conceptually? Despite the "nav" in the title, the story card actually leaves implementation pretty open: https://mingle.corp.wikimedia.org/projects/mobile/cards/579. I can clarify in the title of the card and the A.C. that this should be an overlay, not a nav. Does that address some of your concerns?
Inline image 1
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Vibha Bamba <vbamba@wikimedia.org mailto:vbamba@wikimedia.org> wrote:
At this point we should be doing this at a whiteboard. There are some legitimate concerns but text is hardly a medium to improve ideas =] On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Maryana Pinchuk <mpinchuk@wikimedia.org <mailto:mpinchuk@wikimedia.org>> wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Jon Robson <jrobson@wikimedia.org <mailto:jrobson@wikimedia.org>> wrote: I'm beginning to exhibit raging hatred of the right nav concept... Firstly.. Ergg. two settings is confusing (site and user) - they should be the same page and there is no reason why they can't be. It would be great if when logged in the settings page morphed from device specific to user specific. Would be great to be able to activate alpha on all my devices. In terms of a right nav, the more I think about it and having played with a prototype I knocked up, the more I think a right nav is bad. Although it seems to be becoming an established pattern it seems like an easy option that in my opinion is badly implemented. We can do better and should lead by example. For one I never touch the Facebook one... it just doesn't come natural. I also don't like the idea of 2 menus. I wonder if we could envision 2 stacked menus that can be toggled between and persist when selected. To quote http://www.upassoc.org/upa_publications/jus/2011august/faulkner2.html "... Kingsburg and Andre carried out two studies with 16 users and found in both of their studies that selection from a left-hand menu was faster than from a right-hand menu (2004). However, their research also showed that selections were best done from the same panel, whether that was on the right or left. Thus it is better to have a single design, either on the left or the right, rather than a mixed navigational method that requires the user to select from both left and right panels (Kingsburg & Andre, 2004). This is hardly surprising and is both predicted and supported by Fitts’ Law. (1954)." The thing that bugs me most is that when you move your finger over the left hamburger button and press it the page moves to the left. Your finger is still above the button. This doesn't apply to the right menu. Your finger is now above something else. This to me is very jarry and always feels icky. It still leaves the question of where things such as watch star, talk page link, edit, move and delete buttons go. The bottom would make sense for an app, but position fixed is buggy in the majority of current mobile browsers and we will need a fallback of some sort. Is it just the "nav" part that bothers you, and not so much the "right" and "my stuff" part? What if we had a little person icon to the right of the search bar, and tapping that opened an overlay with pretty visualizations of your recent editing and uploading activity, as well as links to your watchlist and talk page? /That's/ what I ultimately want to work toward; in my mind, the nav part was always just a stepping stone, but maybe we don't actually need that stepping stone and can just go directly to (sneakily) beginning work on a totally new, totally rad mobile userspace :) -- Maryana Pinchuk Associate Product Manager, Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org <http://wikimediafoundation.org> _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Design@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Design@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design-- Maryana Pinchuk Associate Product Manager, Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org http://wikimediafoundation.org
Design mailing list Design@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
