Jason Safoutin wrote:
Well I am going to put my two cents in because I have read just about enough.
Here is why I am entirely opposed to Wikimania being in Egypt.
- Since the announcement of this, the LGBT wikimedians have expressed
grave concern. As mentioned previously, this is a regime in which "opresses" homosexuals and imprisons them. Me being gay, I am not sure I would want to risk that. Not to mention my partner, if I had one and he came, but yet the WMF states that they picked Egypt because of its "geo-diversity http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2007-October/000719.html."
No. Geodiversity was one criteria amongst 12.
- Human rights and "free" speech (free being the key word). Why hold a
conference of a foundation that is based entirely on FREE media when that country and the government don't even support free speech? Why in an country that limits the rights of women and humans in general? What is so "free" about that?
1) The fact we will hold Wikimania in a country does not mean we support the politics of a country. 2) Freedom is not only about dealing with those who have freedom, it is also about helping the poorly free to be more free.
- Egypt is in too close proximity to several areas which are in a near
constant war: Israel and Palestine, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan...not to mention holding this is the Middle East puts (for the most part) Americans at risk and the rest at risk for a prime target of violence or an attack. Was safety considered when making this decision?
Yes As several people already mentionned, there is violence everywhere. Most places are a bit unsafe when one does not have the right color, the right gender or the right religion.
- Who are these people on the "jury
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Jury"? I mean I know their names, but who are they. Are they wealthy? Travel the world frequently? Seems like it because in my opinion this place was picked because it was somewhere they decided it would be nice to visit. More than half of all wikimedians will likely NOT be able to afford the trip, in some cases from literally on the other side of the globe. Might as well rob a bank for the finances.
Here, I will try very very very hard to stay polite and calm, but I think this comment somehow implying that jury members are picking the place to go on holidays at the right place, is seriously offending. In general, those organizing Wikimania work like HELL during Wikimania. This is not holidays. They work a lot, they sleep little and they do not have the time to have fun around.
Second, regarding travel costs, whatever the place we will choose on Earth, it will always be more expensive for some and less expensive for others. Which is one of the reason for rotation.
- The "jury" was composed of, from what I see, 12 individuals who in
some way or another "work" for WMF (and that does NOT necessarily mean getting paid). I see IMO a conflict of interest. The other 2 seem to be just contributers, which is what most of this jury should have been composed of. After all this is a conference for all Wikis.
No. The Foundation is ultimately responsible for this conference. By responsible, for example, understand that if money is necessary, the WMF pays for it. There is no way WMF will agree to be ultimately responsible for the organization of a conference in a location where it has not had any right of say. There is no conflict of interest here. When an organization hold a conference, it is normal it is involved in the decision making of that conference. For example, WMF will approve the budget. There will be no conflict of interest there.
Incidently, this is not a conference for all Wikis, this is the conference of Wikimedia Foundation projects. Makes a huge difference.
Now, if YOU want to organize a conference on wikis in the USA, please do. But be aware you will be responsible of the set up, of the budget, of the program etc...
I am NOT against ever having a Wikimania in the Middle East or eventually in Egypt. But right now, it's not the right time. We need to think about how diverse our contributers are and base a decision off that. In my opinion there are a lot better, safer and more "geo-diversed" places than somewhere where there is a potential for people to be injured or killed or go broke just getting there.
Jason Safoutin, (a.k.a. DragonFire1024 on en.wikinews)
Right now, Wikimania will occur in the Middle East. Period. If you are not happy about that, you may * not come * organize a conference in the USA as well
Both options are fine by me.
Ant
Florence Devouard wrote:
- The fact we will hold Wikimania in a country does not mean we support
the politics of a country. 2) Freedom is not only about dealing with those who have freedom, it is also about helping the poorly free to be more free.
This is not a political conference. The WMF projects don't exist to create a political solution to a government. When it comes to diversity, everyone needs to be considered. I think the title of Jimbo's speech he plans says enough about "politics" /Free knowledge and human rights
/I can relate to the free knowledge...../ /
- Egypt is in too close proximity to several areas which are in a near
constant war: Israel and Palestine, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan...not to mention holding this is the Middle East puts (for the most part) Americans at risk and the rest at risk for a prime target of violence or an attack. Was safety considered when making this decision?
Yes As several people already mentionned, there is violence everywhere. Most places are a bit unsafe when one does not have the right color, the right gender or the right religion.
There is a slight difference. We are talking about extremists. People who make a living out of blowing people up. They are born to kill. And when you are in a region where that is happening on almost a daily basis, I think that needs to be taken into consideration.
Here, I will try very very very hard to stay polite and calm, but I think this comment somehow implying that jury members are picking the place to go on holidays at the right place, is seriously offending. In general, those organizing Wikimania work like HELL during Wikimania. This is not holidays. They work a lot, they sleep little and they do not have the time to have fun around.
Second, regarding travel costs, whatever the place we will choose on Earth, it will always be more expensive for some and less expensive for others. Which is one of the reason for rotation.
- The "jury" was composed of, from what I see, 12 individuals who in
some way or another "work" for WMF (and that does NOT necessarily mean getting paid). I see IMO a conflict of interest. The other 2 seem to be just contributers, which is what most of this jury should have been composed of. After all this is a conference for all Wikis.
No. The Foundation is ultimately responsible for this conference. By responsible, for example, understand that if money is necessary, the WMF pays for it. There is no way WMF will agree to be ultimately responsible for the organization of a conference in a location where it has not had any right of say. There is no conflict of interest here. When an organization hold a conference, it is normal it is involved in the decision making of that conference. For example, WMF will approve the budget. There will be no conflict of interest there.
Incidently, this is not a conference for all Wikis, this is the conference of Wikimedia Foundation projects. Makes a huge difference.
Now, if YOU want to organize a conference on wikis in the USA, please do. But be aware you will be responsible of the set up, of the budget, of the program etc...
We should not forget that besides the server side and what not...including the organization of Wikimania, the contributers are what drive the WMF's projects. Without contributers, where would the projects be?
I am NOT against ever having a Wikimania in the Middle East or eventually in Egypt. But right now, it's not the right time. We need to think about how diverse our contributers are and base a decision off that. In my opinion there are a lot better, safer and more "geo-diversed" places than somewhere where there is a potential for people to be injured or killed or go broke just getting there.
Jason Safoutin, (a.k.a. DragonFire1024 on en.wikinews)
Right now, Wikimania will occur in the Middle East. Period. If you are not happy about that, you may
- not come
- organize a conference in the USA as well
Both options are fine by me.
Ant
I am not the only one not happy about it. I think that the jury may not have realized the extent of the LGBT community on WMF projects. I know I did. But as much as anyone else, I can speak out against such decision. I have that freedom....some people don't.
I have cut all various discussions out of this in order to start an effort to get people to move on from the 2008 decision and accept it.
If you are gay and you go to Egypt - either on holiday or to Wikimania - you keep your sexuality private. In fact, for most countries in that area it doesn't matter your sexual orientation; public displays of affection are frowned upon. If you can't live with that then Egypt isn't a destination for you. For all of us there is somewhere in the world we'd not go. Many Europeans would prefer not to visit the United States, not because they would be at risk (perhaps in the wrong part of L.A.) but because they do not wish to support the county's economy with tourism euros due to some of its policies.
I intend to rely on rotation bringing a future Wikimania to somewhere I can afford to get to. With some of the things recently said on this list I'd love to be in Alexandria doing a talk on Wikinews and trying to grab people's interest in the project. I've been encouraged to attend the Amsterdam get together but I don't think I've time to prep a presentation for that.
So, what I'd like to see on this of-late-hyperactive list is acceptance of the 2008 decision and the concerns that have been raised addressed in the 2009 selection process. People, if you're unhappy with Alexandria list the jury criteria and what aspects you believe were not taken into account. Or argue your case for "Human Rights record" to be added to the criteria. But if you do so keep it clear that it is for future bids, please accept the current 2008 decision and avoid creating drama.
Brian.
On 11/10/2007, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
I have cut all various discussions out of this in order to start an effort to get people to move on from the 2008 decision and accept it.
If you are gay and you go to Egypt – either on holiday or to Wikimania - you keep your sexuality private. In fact, for most countries in that area it doesn't matter your sexual orientation; public displays of affection are frowned upon. If you can't live with that then Egypt isn't a destination for you. For all of us there is somewhere in the world we'd not go. Many Europeans would prefer not to visit the United States, not because they would be at risk (perhaps in the wrong part of L.A.) but because they do not wish to support the county's economy with tourism euros due to some of its policies.
Do the Egyptian authorities care if two people of the same sex share a double room?
Oldak Quill wrote:
Do the Egyptian authorities care if two people of the same sex share a double room?
I'm straight and I've shared a room with a person of the same sex, although not in Egypt. They might not be happy with two people having a room with just one bed - I don't know about that.
Egypt's economy is heavily reliant on tourism, which means they do accept things from the tourists that they won't accept with their own populace. Like many countries in the Middle East they have their issues with sexuality, things are changing slowly but the place is not like the U.S. where you are able to openly be homosexual and the current debate is whether or not you should have the right to marry.
My opinion is that those making an issue out of this aspect of Egypt's climate have taken zero interest in the issue until Alexandria was actually chosen. I find that unfair, and persecuting the jury over the decision is out of order. Wikimania will be seen as encouragement of freedom of expression within the country and an invitation to share what you know on-wiki.
Brian.
On 11/10/2007, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
My opinion is that those making an issue out of this aspect of Egypt's climate have taken zero interest in the issue until Alexandria was actually chosen. I find that unfair, and persecuting the jury over the decision is out of order. Wikimania will be seen as encouragement of freedom of expression within the country and an invitation to share what you know on-wiki.
Brian.
This topic was argued and addressed in quite substantial detail by the jury, the bid team and interested parties before the jury voted. The jury voted having seen the extensive questioning about it and the responses, so we can take their decision as having considered this all. It's now, in my opinion, counterproductive to argue about what the jury *should* have decided, because it's already been done. The best move, I feel, for those aggrieved by the result is to talk about the selection process, jury composition and criteria with the aim of ensuring the Wikimania 2009 selection process reflects what the Wikimedia community would prefer.
~Mark Ryan
The decision has already been made, how is complaining about it going to solve things?
On 10/11/07, Mark Ryan ultrablue@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/10/2007, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
My opinion is that those making an issue out of this aspect of Egypt's climate have taken zero interest in the issue until Alexandria was
actually
chosen. I find that unfair, and persecuting the jury over the decision
is
out of order. Wikimania will be seen as encouragement of freedom of expression within the country and an invitation to share what you know on-wiki.
Brian.
This topic was argued and addressed in quite substantial detail by the jury, the bid team and interested parties before the jury voted. The jury voted having seen the extensive questioning about it and the responses, so we can take their decision as having considered this all. It's now, in my opinion, counterproductive to argue about what the jury *should* have decided, because it's already been done. The best move, I feel, for those aggrieved by the result is to talk about the selection process, jury composition and criteria with the aim of ensuring the Wikimania 2009 selection process reflects what the Wikimedia community would prefer.
~Mark Ryan
Wikinews-l mailing list Wikinews-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
On 12/10/2007, Pilotguy pilotguy.wikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
The decision has already been made, how is complaining about it going to solve things?
That was my point.
~Mark Ryan
On 10/11/07, Jason Safoutin jason.safoutin@wikinewsie.org wrote:
Florence Devouard wrote:
- The fact we will hold Wikimania in a country does not mean we support
the politics of a country. 2) Freedom is not only about dealing with those who have freedom, it is also about helping the poorly free to be more free.
This is not a political conference. The WMF projects don't exist to create a political solution to a government. When it comes to diversity, everyone needs to be considered. I think the title of Jimbo's speech he plans says enough about "politics" Free knowledge and human rights
I can relate to the free knowledge.....
- Egypt is in too close proximity to several areas which are in a near
constant war: Israel and Palestine, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan...not to mention holding this is the Middle East puts (for the most part) Americans at risk and the rest at risk for a prime target of violence or an attack. Was safety considered when making this decision?
Yes As several people already mentionned, there is violence everywhere. Most places are a bit unsafe when one does not have the right color, the right gender or the right religion.
There is a slight difference. We are talking about extremists. People who make a living out of blowing people up. They are born to kill. And when you are in a region where that is happening on almost a daily basis, I think that needs to be taken into consideration.
Here, I will try very very very hard to stay polite and calm, but I think this comment somehow implying that jury members are picking the place to go on holidays at the right place, is seriously offending. In general, those organizing Wikimania work like HELL during Wikimania. This is not holidays. They work a lot, they sleep little and they do not have the time to have fun around.
Second, regarding travel costs, whatever the place we will choose on Earth, it will always be more expensive for some and less expensive for others. Which is one of the reason for rotation.
- The "jury" was composed of, from what I see, 12 individuals who in
some way or another "work" for WMF (and that does NOT necessarily mean getting paid). I see IMO a conflict of interest. The other 2 seem to be just contributers, which is what most of this jury should have been composed of. After all this is a conference for all Wikis.
No. The Foundation is ultimately responsible for this conference. By responsible, for example, understand that if money is necessary, the WMF pays for it. There is no way WMF will agree to be ultimately responsible for the organization of a conference in a location where it has not had any right of say. There is no conflict of interest here. When an organization hold a conference, it is normal it is involved in the decision making of that conference. For example, WMF will approve the budget. There will be no conflict of interest there.
Incidently, this is not a conference for all Wikis, this is the conference of Wikimedia Foundation projects. Makes a huge difference.
Now, if YOU want to organize a conference on wikis in the USA, please do. But be aware you will be responsible of the set up, of the budget, of the program etc...
We should not forget that besides the server side and what not...including the organization of Wikimania, the contributers are what drive the WMF's projects. Without contributers, where would the projects be?
I am NOT against ever having a Wikimania in the Middle East or eventually in Egypt. But right now, it's not the right time. We need to think about how diverse our contributers are and base a decision off that. In my opinion there are a lot better, safer and more "geo-diversed" places than somewhere where there is a potential for people to be injured or killed or go broke just getting there.
Jason Safoutin, (a.k.a. DragonFire1024 on en.wikinews)
Right now, Wikimania will occur in the Middle East. Period. If you are not happy about that, you may
- not come
- organize a conference in the USA as well
Both options are fine by me.
Ant
For the record,
I am not the only one not happy about it. I think that the jury may not have realized the extent of the LGBT community on WMF projects.
Simply you are wrong. See the score Alexandria gots on "Local Laws". We considered the concerns carefully. This is the matter of priority. We have different way to set priorities and it may make you unhappy. But it is the diversity.
I know I did. But as much as anyone else, I can speak out against such decision. I have that freedom....some people don't.
Wikinews-l mailing list Wikinews-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
On 10/11/07, Jason Safoutin jason.safoutin@wikinewsie.org wrote:
Florence Devouard wrote:
- The fact we will hold Wikimania in a country does not mean we support
the politics of a country. 2) Freedom is not only about dealing with those who have freedom, it is also about helping the poorly free to be more free.
This is not a political conference. The WMF projects don't exist to create a political solution to a government. When it comes to diversity, everyone needs to be considered. I think the title of Jimbo's speech he plans says enough about "politics" Free knowledge and human rights
I can relate to the free knowledge.....
- Egypt is in too close proximity to several areas which are in a near
constant war: Israel and Palestine, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan...not to mention holding this is the Middle East puts (for the most part) Americans at risk and the rest at risk for a prime target of violence or an attack. Was safety considered when making this decision?
Yes As several people already mentionned, there is violence everywhere. Most places are a bit unsafe when one does not have the right color, the right gender or the right religion.
There is a slight difference. We are talking about extremists. People who make a living out of blowing people up. They are born to kill. And when you are in a region where that is happening on almost a daily basis, I think that needs to be taken into consideration.
Here, I will try very very very hard to stay polite and calm, but I think this comment somehow implying that jury members are picking the place to go on holidays at the right place, is seriously offending. In general, those organizing Wikimania work like HELL during Wikimania. This is not holidays. They work a lot, they sleep little and they do not have the time to have fun around.
Second, regarding travel costs, whatever the place we will choose on Earth, it will always be more expensive for some and less expensive for others. Which is one of the reason for rotation.
- The "jury" was composed of, from what I see, 12 individuals who in
some way or another "work" for WMF (and that does NOT necessarily mean getting paid). I see IMO a conflict of interest. The other 2 seem to be just contributers, which is what most of this jury should have been composed of. After all this is a conference for all Wikis.
No. The Foundation is ultimately responsible for this conference. By responsible, for example, understand that if money is necessary, the WMF pays for it. There is no way WMF will agree to be ultimately responsible for the organization of a conference in a location where it has not had any right of say. There is no conflict of interest here. When an organization hold a conference, it is normal it is involved in the decision making of that conference. For example, WMF will approve the budget. There will be no conflict of interest there.
Incidently, this is not a conference for all Wikis, this is the conference of Wikimedia Foundation projects. Makes a huge difference.
Now, if YOU want to organize a conference on wikis in the USA, please do. But be aware you will be responsible of the set up, of the budget, of the program etc...
We should not forget that besides the server side and what not...including the organization of Wikimania, the contributers are what drive the WMF's projects. Without contributers, where would the projects be?
I am NOT against ever having a Wikimania in the Middle East or eventually in Egypt. But right now, it's not the right time. We need to think about how diverse our contributers are and base a decision off that. In my opinion there are a lot better, safer and more "geo-diversed" places than somewhere where there is a potential for people to be injured or killed or go broke just getting there.
Jason Safoutin, (a.k.a. DragonFire1024 on en.wikinews)
Right now, Wikimania will occur in the Middle East. Period. If you are not happy about that, you may
- not come
- organize a conference in the USA as well
Both options are fine by me.
Ant
For the record,
I am not the only one not happy about it. I think that the jury may not have realized the extent of the LGBT community on WMF projects.
Simply you are wrong. See the score Alexandria gots on "Local Laws". We considered the concerns carefully. This is the matter of priority. We have different way to set priorities and it may make you unhappy. But it is the diversity.
I know I did. But as much as anyone else, I can speak out against such decision. I have that freedom....some people don't.
Wikinews-l mailing list Wikinews-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
wikinews-l@lists.wikimedia.org