Hi All
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000 *since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)*
they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution *Wrong Information*
4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) *MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.*
failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. *(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).*
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. *Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode*
some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. *Give Evidance* ** People think Unicode is experinmental *only you and some stupid person can't be say as People*
and not going to happen like most other government projects. *Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode. Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm* *Is it government funded web sites.
*Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex* Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not complex, just needed to try by yourselves*
not good enough for formal web and document.* What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.*
Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts* Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more fonts for burmese*
*Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)*
Best
--NT
Thanks for the correction. Unfortunately I cannot agree all of your correction.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000 *since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)*
Thanks.
**
they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution *Wrong Information*
That is true. All DTP typist agree. You know it, don't you? Here is some supporting facthttp://myanmaritpros.com/group/burglish/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A48598 .
**
4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) *MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.*
At least codepoints follow, doesn't? Or you can say 4.0 model follows MyaZedi.
**
failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. *(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).*
That is well know fact. But nobody dare to talk.
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. *Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode*
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.
**
some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. *Give Evidance*
This is also well know fact.
** ** People think Unicode is experinmental *only you and some stupid person can't be say as People*
That is what people believe on Myanmar Unicode.
and not going to happen like most other government projects. *Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode. Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm* *Is it government funded web sites.*
Yes, government office and web site must use Myanmar1/2/3. It is an order.
*Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex* Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not complex, just needed to try by yourselves*
True.
**
not good enough for formal web and document.* What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.*
I don't means error. They just don't look good. If you offer MyaZeDi typeface, I will say 5.1 has a great font.
Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts* Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more fonts for burmese*
Yes, it is not right time now.
*Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)*
Best
--NT
Yours,
Okisan
Dear Ko Kyaw Tun
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Kyaw Tun kyawtuns@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the correction. Unfortunately I cannot agree all of your correction.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000 *since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)*
Thanks.
**
they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution *Wrong Information*
That is true. All DTP typist agree. You know it, don't you? Here is some supporting facthttp://myanmaritpros.com/group/burglish/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A48598 .
I've been several customer site. Including making Myanmar Lexicon Database by Ministry of Education. They said so, Myanmar Unicode Keyboards is more faster than ASCII keyboard, for some stacks characters, They do need to memorize or keep the character chart beside. Myanmar Unicode Keyboard based on unique canonical order. How did you measure? I don't think, Burglish is different from Unicode Keyboard. You might know Keyboard Mapping Software and Input Method Editor. Don't compare with Keyboard and IME. :) If you still missing that information you should learn basic component of Localization first.
**
4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) *MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.*
At least codepoints follow, doesn't? Or you can say 4.0 model follows MyaZedi.
You still thinking different from others. I expressed that MyaZedi never base on Unicode Standards. Standards is not only Code Point but also encoding standards. Just buy Unicode Standards Books and learn first. What's code points and Standards.
**
failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. *(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).*
That is well know fact. But nobody dare to talk.
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. *Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode*
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.
Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
**
some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. *Give Evidance*
This is also well know fact.
** **
Hey. It's not true. It's biased information.
People think Unicode is experinmental
*only you and some stupid person can't be say as People*
That is what people believe on Myanmar Unicode.
and not going to happen like most other government projects. *Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode. Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm* *Is it government funded web sites.*
Yes, government office and web site must use Myanmar1/2/3. It is an order.
**
Ever government will enforce national level industrial standards in their
office. Japanese Government enforced to use JIS in IT Industry. You may know more than me.
*Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex* Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not complex, just needed to try by yourselves*
True.
**
not good enough for formal web and document.* What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.*
I don't means error. They just don't look good. If you offer MyaZeDi typeface, I will say 5.1 has a great font.
Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts* Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more fonts for burmese*
Yes, it is not right time now.
*Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)
Best
--NT
Yours,
Okisan
Bro. Keep it up. It's last e-mail for you. I can't lost time and energy for Unicode any more. You never try to know right information. You may gather information from wrong source.
Let it be. Just stay in wrong information sphere. I'm going to skip your wrong information.
Ngwe Tun
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Ko Kyaw Tun
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Kyaw Tun kyawtuns@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the correction. Unfortunately I cannot agree all of your correction.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000 *since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)*
Thanks.
**
they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution *Wrong Information*
That is true. All DTP typist agree. You know it, don't you? Here is some supporting facthttp://myanmaritpros.com/group/burglish/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A48598 .
I've been several customer site. Including making Myanmar Lexicon Database by Ministry of Education. They said so, Myanmar Unicode Keyboards is more faster than ASCII keyboard, for some stacks characters, They do need to memorize or keep the character chart beside. Myanmar Unicode Keyboard based on unique canonical order. How did you measure? I don't think, Burglish is different from Unicode Keyboard. You might know Keyboard Mapping Software and Input Method Editor. Don't compare with Keyboard and IME. :) If you still missing that information you should learn basic component of Localization first.
Being closedly work in IME (Burglishhttp://code.google.com/p/burglish/wiki/BurglishTextBox) and Keyboard manager (Keymagic http://code.google.com/p/keymagic/), I do know the different and their limitation too. It is true that expert typist can type faster in ASCII than in Unicode input methods provide.
This fact suggests that people like simple ways even than better one.
**4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) *MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.*
At least codepoints follow, doesn't? Or you can say 4.0 model follows MyaZedi.
You still thinking different from others. I expressed that MyaZedi never base on Unicode Standards. Standards is not only Code Point but also encoding standards. Just buy Unicode Standards Books and learn first. What's code points and Standards.
**
failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. *(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).*
That is well know fact. But nobody dare to talk.
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. *Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.
Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
Sorry, I means 5.1. We have only three versions 4.0 --> 4.1 --> 5.1.
**some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. *Give Evidance*
This is also well know fact.
** **
Hey. It's not true. It's biased information.
No bias. It is users respond.
People think Unicode is experinmental*only you and some stupid person can't be say as People*
That is what people believe on Myanmar Unicode.
and not going to happen like most other government projects. *Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode. Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm
- *Is it government funded web sites.*
Yes, government office and web site must use Myanmar1/2/3. It is an order.
**
Ever government will enforce national level industrial standards in their
office. Japanese Government enforced to use JIS in IT Industry. You may know more than me.
Other country can enforced, but not in Myanmar. If gov say that way, people will go the opposite.
**Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex* Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not complex, just needed to try by yourselves*
True.
**
not good enough for formal web and document.* What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.*
I don't means error. They just don't look good. If you offer MyaZeDi typeface, I will say 5.1 has a great font.
Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts* Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more fonts for burmese*
Yes, it is not right time now.
*Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)*
Best
--NT
Yours,
Okisan
Bro. Keep it up. It's last e-mail for you. I can't lost time and energy for Unicode any more. You never try to know right information. You may gather information from wrong source.
I cannot have too much wrong information, since I have been talking to many people everyday in the forum.
Let it be. Just stay in wrong information sphere. I'm going to skip your wrong information.
Okey. Sound usual way of doing.
Ngwe Tun
Yours, Okisan
Ngwe Tun wrote:
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
I will buy the book and send it, if anyone finds this helpful.
I am not qualified on the technical nor local language issues to help. My only role here is to say: Wikimedia Foundation wants the RIGHT answer ans we are 100% committed to supporting people who will get us there.
What is the RIGHT answer?
1. Unicode support for all Myanmar speaking people. 2. GOOD fonts for everyone. 3. FREE in the sense of GNU fonts for everyone.
If it is helpful to support you all with resources to get more knowledge, I am happy to help if I can.
--Jimbo
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Ngwe Tun wrote:
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
I will buy the book and send it, if anyone finds this helpful.
I am not qualified on the technical nor local language issues to help. My only role here is to say: Wikimedia Foundation wants the RIGHT answer ans we are 100% committed to supporting people who will get us there.
Thanks.
What is the RIGHT answer?
- Unicode support for all Myanmar speaking people.
Zawgyi is NOT standard Unicode.
- GOOD fonts for everyone.
Zawgyi is Excellent. Unicode fonts are OK.
- FREE in the sense of GNU fonts for everyone.
Zawgyi is free but NOT in the sense of GNU fonts.
If it is helpful to support you all with resources to get more knowledge, I am happy to help if I can.
--Jimbo
Best regards, Okisan
Hi All
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Ngwe Tun wrote:
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
I will buy the book and send it, if anyone finds this helpful.
We had it online version. We are already well know on that context. Kyaw Tun didn't know well. That's why I'm giving good suggestion. Without knowing the standards books, He may defense again and again.
I am not qualified on the technical nor local language issues to help. My only role here is to say: Wikimedia Foundation wants the RIGHT answer ans we are 100% committed to supporting people who will get us there.
What is the RIGHT answer?
- Unicode support for all Myanmar speaking people.
For the Burmese Language, Unicode supports for all words in Burmese Orthography. I compiled burmese orthographies list in Parabaik Fonts here. http://ngwestar.googlepages.com/Splitted_Result.xls It would be useful for Unit Test of every possible Burmese Words.
- GOOD fonts for everyone.
There are 3 Myanmar Unicode font conformant to Unicode 5.1 (Padaukhttp://scripts.sil.org/Padauk, Myanmar3 http://myanmarnlpteam.blogspot.com/2007/08/download-links.html, Parabaik http://www.parabaik.info/, etc). So, Please seek some expression about burmese font in my.openoffice.org and http://www.unicode.org/resources/fonts.html So. we have GOOOOOOD fonts already. If Kyaw Tun and other people may not resist to use those font, we do not need to say aloud here. They didn't try to migrate and saying about wrong information. Again. There are no doubt to migrate Unicode Fonts.
- FREE in the sense of GNU fonts for everyone.
Luckily, 2 of 3 Myanamr Unicode Fonts and Keyboard Mapping programs are released as GPL and OFL License. They even give source code too. They can cook their favorite in their home. 1 of 3 Myanmar Unicode Fonts are released as LGPL License. But no one tried those font. I released open source fonts and keyboards in Dec 2006 http://www.parabaik.info/pressrelease.html No Burmese interested to collaborate those effort.
If it is helpful to support you all with resources to get more knowledge, I am happy to help if I can.
Yes, Sure. First, I likely to have your support adding unicode fonts enforcement in Wikipedia.org. We are lack in technology and references.
Could you encourage to Software Vendors to support Burmese Language in their product Like, Microsoft, Sun, Apple. American Embargo should not impact Burmese Language. I saw so many Burmese migrants in Thailand. They are lack in English. They can't use any Electronic devices in Mother Tongue. We should take care over 1 million burmese migrants people too. sorry for out of box.
I hope to get more contacts point from Software Vendor or Localization Groups. We can share flow of localization and completed works in their language.
--Jimbo
Hope you clear Myanmar fonts issues. Why they are resisting Myanmar Unicode Font? Only 2 reason, 1) Major Software Vendor not properly supported in Burmese Rendering. E.g. Microsoft and Adobe. 2) They don't have proper technology in migration process. So. They are arguing like difficult, low quality other issues.
Thanks for you taking care much on burmese language context.
Rgds
Ngwe Tun.
Adding to the comments:
2008/8/1 Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com
Hope you clear Myanmar fonts issues. Why they are resisting Myanmar Unicode Font? Only 2 reason, 1) Major Software Vendor not properly supported in Burmese Rendering. E.g. Microsoft and Adobe. 2) They don't have proper technology in migration process. So. They are arguing like difficult, low quality other issues.
Uptake of Unicode 5.1 solutions in the Burmese Diaspora and uptake of those solutions by libraries, universities and education institutions supporting Burmese refugees is hindered by:
1) the lack of ease of setting up a computer to handle Burmese input, text layout and font rendering
2) applications can't handle Burmese line breaking (although maybe an extension such as the one developed for Firefox 1.5/2 to handle Thia line breaking may help on the web)
3) lack of either open source or commercial solutions that can legally provide rendering solutions on pre-Vista versions of Windows.
The third point may or may not be relevant in-country, due to embargos and the sate of copyright law in-country. But it is a barrier in other countries.
Andrew
Dear Mr.Wales, Mr.Micheal, Ko Ngwe Tun, Ko Kyaw Tun, and all
Allow me to interpret. I'm Victor San Kho Lin, and yet another Myanmar font developer and individual interest and enthusiast on Unicode and Myanmar script. I'm also involving in community for collaborating other native language software developments.
1) I would like to propose to keep going as the current my.wikipedia.org as per normal. 2) And I would like to propose to current contributor(s) of my.wikipedia.org for supporting all possible Unicode 5.1 format fonts (current and future uptake) on CSS declaration. 3) The text data should store as Unicode 5.1 format at any case.
Unicode 5.1 support for Myanmar Burmese script will be eventually taken place over. Today, Microsoft Window, GNU/Linux and Unix alike system are supporting Unicode 5.1. Mac OS support will be eventually in-progress, too.
Please kindly do refer the following reports and paper for your reference for supporting document. http://www.mmgeeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=822 http://www.mmlt.org/news/myanmar-unicode-implementation-public-awareness
I hope, and within community, we try to sort out all these misunderstanding and brainstorm to find positive towards a better solution.
And yes, without the suspect, the Zawgyi typeface is the most successful font over internet medium and communication. For the instance of Zawgyi, I would like to call for Public Domain implementation for Zawgyi Unicode 5.1 transition. When transition is done, Zawgyi will join as other does. I believe, the transition will be fast since we have available OFL and LGPL source. I would like to convince Ko Kyaw Tun to continue contribute on my.wikipedia.org and, not to split/demand zawgyi sub domain any further with all due respect.
Currently, we are discussing and preparing for the Unicode 5.1 uptake event, "U51 Movement". For any technical concern uprise, we will try to collaborate and work on.
So, to the conclusion, we will try to do all the effort to catch the technical issues as well as usability solution. As for Wikimedia Foundation, if possible, please help us to express the corporations like Microsoft/Adobe to include Myanmar Burmese script specification and official support on their system.
Best Wish, Victor San Kho Lin
________________________________________ From: wikimy-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [wikimy-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales [jwales@wikia.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 9:41 AM To: Ngwe Tun Cc: wikimy-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiMy-l] kyaw tun wrong history
Ngwe Tun wrote:
At least it breaks if you put 4.1 data in 5.0.Never, You should buy those book from Amazon and keep figure out what differences are.
I will buy the book and send it, if anyone finds this helpful.
I am not qualified on the technical nor local language issues to help. My only role here is to say: Wikimedia Foundation wants the RIGHT answer ans we are 100% committed to supporting people who will get us there.
What is the RIGHT answer?
1. Unicode support for all Myanmar speaking people. 2. GOOD fonts for everyone. 3. FREE in the sense of GNU fonts for everyone.
If it is helpful to support you all with resources to get more knowledge, I am happy to help if I can.
--Jimbo
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It's Ravi Message
Hello List, I have been following this list for a while. I am a recent contributor on Wikipedia and have followed Unicode developments in my country ever since 1997. I can tell here that my.wikipedia.org works, there is hardly anything wrong with it (just a few bugs with Normalization). The only reason there is resistance there in regards to fonts is simply because people do not like change. Trying to find technical reasons for Zawgyi would be simply naive. I agree that Unicode 5.1 would not work easily on older machines. I do not have any stastical data, but I can assert that about 90% of users in Myanmar are on Windows XP (Service Pack 2). ICafes are also very friendly towards it's customers and are willing to allow installation of software. I live here. I know what I am talking about. So what other reason are there not to go 5.1?
I have a question for Mr. Everson. Why do you say that my.wikipedia doesn't work and is broken? The only thing that was needed was a slight change in the CSS. The only reason all this war broke up was becuase Htoo Myint Naung resisted to change the CSS to allow inclusion of other Fonts. Also, Mr. Everson why do you allude to the notation that other Unicode 5.1 just might not be compliant? If there are problems with these fonts, just spell it out. Even assuming there are problems, I still think it shold be included. Because we want a hihgly inclusive process in Wikipedia. The older CSS (not the current one) made Wikipedia pretty much exclusive. The whole problem is I believe our people resist too much to change. Our task here is therefore to actually start promoting the use of Unicode like Victor mentioned. I have done my part in the country here promoting it. I have brought users to Wikipedia and asked the to start converting the older articles. I am doing that myself. I would not like to see the community split. And I believe it won't. Non Unicode fonts are about to become irrelevant soon, except in niche markets. One of the reason why strong protest started.
I am however sad that contributors were not asked to join this list. Hintha, Zawthet, me, Fox and a few other's opinion should have been taken. We could have given the view from the trench. Had Okisan not mentioned about this list on MyanmarITPros I would not have kown about it. Well, let's all call it a day now and move on and make Wikipedia grow.
Love, Ravi.
Ngwe Tun wrote:
I am however sad that contributors were not asked to join this list. Hintha, Zawthet, me, Fox and a few other's opinion should have been taken. We could have given the view from the trench. Had Okisan not mentioned about this list on MyanmarITPros I would not have kown about it. Well, let's all call it a day now and move on and make Wikipedia grow.
Ravi, hi!
You are all very much invited. Nothing has been decided and I feel that I still have much to learn.
--Jimbo
Hi Ravi,
2008/8/2 Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com
It's Ravi Message
Also, Mr. Everson why do you allude to the notation that other Unicode 5.1 just might not be compliant? If there are problems with these fonts, just spell it out.
My understanding of Michael's comments was that he indicated that the fonts used for my.wikipedia.org should include support for a range of languages, not just Burmese. That at some stage someone will write an article that has Pail or Sanskrit words in it, or amy write an article on the ethnic minorities or linguistics that would need to support the display of characters and words of the ehtnic languages.
Andrew
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Andrew Cunningham lang.support@gmail.comwrote:
Hi Ravi,
2008/8/2 Ngwe Tun ngwestar@gmail.com
It's Ravi Message
Also, Mr. Everson why do you allude to the notation that other Unicode 5.1 just might not be compliant? If there are problems with these fonts, just spell it out.
My understanding of Michael's comments was that he indicated that the fonts used for my.wikipedia.org should include support for a range of languages, not just Burmese. That at some stage someone will write an article that has Pail or Sanskrit words in it, or amy write an article on the ethnic minorities or linguistics that would need to support the display of characters and words of the ehtnic languages.
If Micheal want to develop font that support Pail or Sanskrit, that is fine. But it is not related to uptake of my.wikipedia.org. If he did it, my.wikipedia.org can use it right away. I hope at this time a new Myanmar Unicode version will not break the last one again and again.
Okisan
Andrew
-- Andrew Cunningham Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator State Library of Victoria Australia
andrewc@vicnet.net.au lang.support@gmail.com
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