Wikimy-l July 2008

wikimy-l@lists.wikimedia.org

7 participants
28 discussions

kyaw tun wrong history
by Ngwe Tun 02 Oct '10

02 Oct '10

Hi All ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000 *since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)* they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution *Wrong Information* 4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) *MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.* failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. *(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).* Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. *Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode* some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. *Give Evidance* ** People think Unicode is experinmental *only you and some stupid person can't be say as People* and not going to happen like most other government projects. *Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode. Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm* *Is it government funded web sites. *Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex* Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not complex, just needed to try by yourselves* not good enough for formal web and document.* What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.* Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts* Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more fonts for burmese* *Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)* Best --NT -- In Burmese; Ngwe mean 1) Silver 2) Money 3) Second Awards; Tun mean 1) Light 2) be prominent.

6 13

Re: [WikiMy-l] reply for Mr. Wales
by Htoo Myint Naung 01 Aug '08

01 Aug '08

There's one thing I can say about, the typeface quality. Almost ALL ASCII fonts which are used in these day's publications are converting to Unicode while pseudo-unicode developers are fighting a font war. You can see here http://www.mymyanmar.net/2g/feats.php?f=universal. Even ZawGyi's typeface designer, U Zaw Win Myat generously gave me the rights to convert ZawGyi typeface to Unicode. And I can say a few number of BIG publishers are using Unicode 5.1 now. There is nothing you need to worry about typeface. And I cannot see a COMMERCIAL unicode 5.1 font yet. I suspect I cannot get people to believe unicode is the right solution if there aren't people who are saying pseudo-unicode fonts are better. Htoo On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 7:43 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote: > At 21:51 +0900 2008-07-26, Kyaw Tun wrote: > > My statement is not to interpret literally. Please ask your partner, Myint >> Htoo Naing, what I mean it is. >> > > He is not my partner, he is my colleague. > > If it looks like government stuff, it is very difficult to get people >> trust. >> > > But you have to teach them. > > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >

2 1

Re: [WikiMy-l] reply for Mr. Wales
by Kyaw Tun 30 Jul '08

30 Jul '08

Thanks for your input. We do accept donation. It is non-profit organization<http://www.myanmarwikipedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:community>having same policy as Wikipedia Foundation. We will correct donation page description. Thanks, Okisan On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote: > At 09:23 +0900 2008-07-27, Kyaw Tun wrote: > > >OK. You have been kicked out from > ><http://myanmarwikipedia.org/>myanmarwikipedia.org. No more testing. > > Well, this is troubling. And so is this > > http://www.myanmarwikipedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Myanmar_Wikipedia:Site… > where it appears that the owners of that version are trying to use > the Wikipedia's name to make some money. There's even a PayPal link. > > And yet Okisan has attacked me and Htoo Myint Naung on public forums, > alleging that we are trying to use my.wikipedia.org to make money > from users. Isn't that strange? And the reason he did it? Because of > the content of a newspaper article. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimy-l mailing list > Wikimy-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l >

4 11

The effect of Unicode revolution on Myanmar IT community
by Kyaw Tun 30 Jul '08

30 Jul '08

Dear Mr Jimbo Wales and all, I would like to explain more detail the questions by last two e-mails by Mr Jimbo Wales. I do have great respect for them, but thing get out of control regarding the issue. The problem is to be solved by understanding user expectation, changing previous mind-set of Unicode experience, educating and circumventing users' limited facility. I think it will be more clear if I explain my hypothetical view of Unicode revolution. Not a revolution, but it really is for Myanmar IT community. I will be very appreciate if somebody correct I talk something wrong. Since we have very little information on the web, it is better to talk as one own knowledge even though it cannot be supported. So I have included my personal un-comfirmed information as well. ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000<http://www.myanmarnlp.net.mm/doc/index.htm>and many Myanmar font has appear since then. I think there will be over 1000 fonts by around 50 publishers, well know being Win, CE, U4 ?. There is no progress in technology, but created several different keyboard mappings by different font publishers in attemptation for domination. People wanted to standarize Myanmar ASCII as well, but did not get concensus. All DTP service in Myanmar use ASCII font until today. *There is no reason to change Unicode font* because they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution could provide. Also wide variety of typeface they can choose from in ASCII where as there is no good looking Unicode fonts. There is real need for Unicode in web application and database systems. Unicode 4.1 was approved. At that time, 4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) and commerically profitable. Public funded organization, Myanmar NLP, failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised. To give pressure to the organization, a Zawgyi font (partly based on MyaZeDi) was developed by Alpha info-tech<http://www.alpha.com.mm/>and released free on 2005. It is immediately popular on the web and now *all Myanmar blogs and forum use Zawgyi Font*. Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in Unicode 5.0. In Unicode 5.1, a stacker technique was introduced on 2008. All these changes disrupt Unicode font. People don't have conversion tool from 4.1 --> 5.0 --> 5.1. People hate Unicode solution because some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. People think Unicode is experinmental and not going to happen like most other government projects. Instead Zawgyi keeps 4.0 solution and updated as necessary basic. Since non-standard Unicode, Zawgyi has leasure of taking up other invalid codepoints and introduce new things without breaking existing system. Web application like CMS, forum, chatroom, wiki, etc can setup using Zawgyi in no time and have extensive support and documentation from many places. There are many tools like ASCII (almost any mapping) --> Zawgyi, input system, dictionary. All of these are free and high quality. Whereas Unicode deliver low quality and expensive solution. Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex and beyound all font publishers except MyMyanmar and Solveware. Myanmar NLP also do not have the technology<http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A39186>. It is rather obvious that all will oppose Unicode, how good it is. The two company also give free Unicode font, but not good enough for formal web and document. Myanmar3 is OK for formal printed document, but not on the web. I am sure, MyMyanmar and Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts in appreprioate time when Unicode 5.1 become mainstream. I hope you will understand why people hate Unicode and love Zawgyi. PS: If zawgyi 5.1 font is to be developed, please contact to Alpha Info-Tech. Although alpha is not capable of implementing 5.1, we should pay for originality. Okisan

1 0

Re: [WikiMy-l] reply for Mr. Wales
by Andrew Cunningham 30 Jul '08

30 Jul '08

Hi all as a rule cybercafes tend to be responsive to users. If enough users ask for Unicode 5.1 support, and there are enough Unicode 5.1 sites, then cybercafes will support it. And the reality is that proper Burmese support in applications will be built on Unicode 5.1, wether its OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, Microsoft applications, etc Burmese locale support is Unicode 5.1 based. Line breaking and collation routines that ake their way into major applications will be Uniocde 5/1 based, etc. The question is how you facilitate the uptake rather than encouraging people not to migrate. 2008/7/26 Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com> > > >1. As mentioned in Ko Ngwe Tun's previous > >discussion, we use internet cafe computers and > >have less option for installing new fonts or > >browser based addon. > > > IT experts in Myanmar should certainly be > encouraging internet cafés to migrate to Unicode > 5.1. And if there are Facebook or Flicker sites > using non-Unicode encodings, those should also be > encouraged to migrate, as Htoo and I have been > trying to do with the Wikipedia. > I'd agree, but there is one key issue nobody seems to be addressing. Most users are using a pre-Vista version of Windows, and currently I am unaware of any legal software solutions for rendering Myanmar Unicode 5.1 on pre-Vista Windows, other than a handful of specialist SIL applications running Graphite, and some very old experiemnts in Firefox and OpenOffice For uptake, it needs to be easy and free or very very cheap. > >2. Myanmar Unicode has history of breaking > >previous version and luck of migration support. > >It is rather strange that there is NO convertor > >available for myanmar1 (Unicode 4.0) to myanmar2 > >(Unicode 4.1) or myanmar2 to myanmar3 (Unicode > >5.1). > > It isn't Unicode's place to make such a > converter. The owners of myanmar1, myanmar2, and > myanmar3 should have a care for the problem. But > there *are* converters available for text > conversion. > agree, and from memory a nnumber of convertors exist > >3. Unicode font are not redistributation (yes > Some fonts are re distributable, but Uniscribe isn't. >5. Unicode font input methods are low quality, > >extra cost or branding. Zawgyi uers has long > >being enjoy phonetic input. > This is a furphy. There is absolutely no reason why Unicode 5.1 can't be phonetic. Although I question why it should be phoentic or more properly psuedo-phonetic. Likewise a keyboard layout could be either based on a logical or visual keyboard layout. This is just an implementation issue, the reality is that keyboard layout developers choose to implement keyboards certain ways, using certain technologies. > > Zawgyi users are forced to encode their language > texts in a non-standard way. This will only hurt > them, and Myanmar, in the long run, as it does in > the short run. > From the point of view of keyboard layout design principles the Zawgyi keyboard layout is sub-optimal with many design problems. Even if you decide to implement a phonetic keyboard for Unicode 5.1 you would not base it on the Zawgyi layout. The Zawgyi layout uses teh same approach as legacy 8-bit fonts essentally. The Zawgyi layout indicates that the font doesn't support complex rendering, and the layout wasn't implemented for a "smart" input system. > >Myanmar Wikipedia should not take the burdon. At > >bottom line, Wkipedia is providing knowledge, > >not font. Also people don't think Wikipedia is > >good enough to install a new font. > In part I'd agree, Myanmar Wikipedia should not be a burden. Although I don't think that avoiding font downlaods solves teh problem. At some point people will start migrating, Optimising the CSS will allow people to use any Uniocde 5.1 font they have is a necessary approach. Hopefully over tiem they determien which font suits tehir needs best. I'd rather ot tie it to a single font, whether its one particular uniocde 5.1 font or Zawgyi. -- Andrew Cunningham Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator State Library of Victoria Australia andrewc(a)vicnet.net.au lang.support(a)gmail.com

4 5

reply for Mr. Wales
by Ngwe Tun 28 Jul '08

28 Jul '08

Hi All Can I clear any doubt on Burmese Localization Situation. *anyone can use any myanmar Unicode 5.1 - compliant font to look at it.* For Burmese, It's different from English situation. Microsoft Windows XP and older operating system are widely used by Burmese People. Microsoft Windows Vista natively support Burmese Rendering. Ubuntu 8.04 natively support Burmese Rendering. Main Problem is lack of rendering support by Microsoft Windows older version. We have to patch/update Uniscribe Rendering Engine in older Operating System. That's technical issues. *If there are Unicode 5.1 fonts, perhaps incomplete, perhaps complete, then fine. People can use those.* Absolutely, There are no problem concern with fonts. There are 3 Unicode Fonts for Burmese. At First, my.wikipedia.org is not suited for other ethnics characters and Buddhist teaching concern. That's fine. Why we need to wait anymore. But for the Zawgyi fans and old operating system users might not be seen proper Burmese characters because encoding standards are different from Zawgyi and Unicode 4.1 What ever we need to think long run. I strongly recommended to store Unicode 5.1. *What would the problem be with this? Would it render the site unusable for people who are using only Zawgyi?* We should support any Wikipedian who are willing to write with any font/encoding. But we can convert those input texts with different encoding by internal converter. It's meaning to say Zawgyi text can be converted into Unicode 5.1. I suppose to do accessibility problem is key issues for every language. Michael figured out that multiple platform would be fine. I would like to propose again that multiple font encoding must support in my.wikipedia.org Be clear enough. I do not support storing non-Unicode 5.1 Standards. But we must support converted HTML in Zawgyi, MyaZedi and such dated Fonts. Well, Here is solution to put converter in wiki. http://mmbotconvert.vndv.com/ It's off-line converter for Zawgyi<>Unicode 5.1. It can be engaged with Wiki Textbox. Let me explain 1 scenario, A Wikipedian will go Myanmar CyberCafe. Cybercafe may not allow to install Unicode 5.1 Fonts. But In their machine, They installed Zawgyi Font. So, Our proposed solution is to easily access with installed fonts. How can we solve user accessibility issues? Only Javascirpt file, It should be attached in MediaWiki. We have accomplished converter development in javascript. We are going to test unit testing in Myanmar Orthography List. So, you may clear that why we are taking care on non-Unicode Fonts. We had solution to convert those thing. So, There are no problem in Fonts. Only problem in accessibility issues. Thanks for your time and effort on Myanmar Wikipedia. Ngwe Tun -- In Burmese; Ngwe mean 1) Silver 2) Money 3) Second Awards; Tun mean 1) Light 2) be prominent.

5 20

Re: [WikiMy-l] reply for Mr. Wales
by Kyaw Tun 28 Jul '08

28 Jul '08

Dear Micheal, Regarding all my accusation, all topics are open to public forum at Myanmar IT Professionals <http://www.myanmaritpros.com/>. This forum is founded by Christopher Tun <http://www.linkedin.com/in/christophertun>, former CEO of Inforithm-Maze and first generation Myanmar Unicode Font design. You can find almost all Myanmar IT perople including Myanmar NLP members. So false statements are not likely to sustain. The forum has history of deleting topic on pure public slander. So why not chellenge there? Best regards, Okisan On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote: > At 09:20 +0900 2008-07-27, Kyaw Tun wrote: > > >Reality is different. People love Zawgyi (non-gov) over Unicode 5.1 > >(gov). People don't know usefulness of Unicode 5.1, but just know it > >does't look good. Frankly I don't think people will install Unicode > >5.1 font, unless there is a change of image. > > And what are you doing to actively change that image? Nothing? You've > set up your own myanmarwikipedia.org, for instance, so they don't > have to change from your proprietary font to Unicode. Your own > website suggests that you may never support Unicode 5.1: > > http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-Okisan-when%20will%20zawgyi%20be%20unicode%205.1%… > > Here you have attacked Htoo > > http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-defining_and_defying_the_standard_pada… > claiming "monopolistic practices by sysops". This is offensive and > you should not keep this on your website. > > This page > > http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-going_wrong_with_users_myanmar_wikiped… > is full of your false allegations. > > This comment http://my.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sithu015 made by > Okisan on a my.wikipedia.org talk page suggests to me that he should > not be made a sysop, anyway. > > On your own front page http://www.zawgyi.org/ you state, wrongly: > "MyWikipedia Myanmar Wikipedia: Now accepting Unicode 5.1 MyWikipedia > has secret plan to skip Unicode 5.1 to Unicode 5.2. Unicode 5.2 is > unheard of, not even Myanmar NLP." This shows that you don't know > what you are talking about. New Myanmar characters will be added in > Unicode 5.2 or 6.0 or whatever it will be called, but they will not > impact the Burmese language; they are for minority languages. Yes, > Unicode fonts supporting the Myanmar script should, in due course, > support these characters. And here along with nonsense about "secret > plans" > > http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-Myanmar_Wikipedia_Now_accepting_Unicod… > you have simply said that you do not want my.wikipedia.org to migrate > to Unicode 5.1: "removing [Zawgyi] out of Myanmar Wikipedia is > completely unacceptable". > > Jimbo, this brings us back to the entente that Andrew and I had about > how to move things forward. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimy-l mailing list > Wikimy-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l >

1 0

Re: [WikiMy-l] Fwd: Wikia e-mail
by Kyaw Tun 28 Jul '08

28 Jul '08

Dear Micheal, The news stated that you and your partner Htoo Myint Naung invented the new Unicode Font, it looks like both of you are king in Myanmar Unicode. But reality is both of you are not in top of the list in contribution<http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A43215&pa…>. I have seen many time you claim that *I am one of the authors of the Unicode Standard*. Your statement is not comfortable with Ko Ngwe Tun or Ko Ravi. So you stop saying more than what you did. It did hurt dignity of Myanmar IT community. Best regards, Okisan On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote: > At 22:53 +0900 2008-07-26, Kyaw Tun wrote: > >How come you say The News is not relevent to you or Htoo Myint Naung? > > I am not responsible for what is printed in a newspaper that never > contacted me. > > >That is how you claim to other people, isn't? That is how you claim > >to funding agency, isn't? > > I have no idea what you are talking about. > > >Please also see how > >< > http://my.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship#.28-.29_Oppose > >Ravi > >told about you and > >< > http://myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A43215&page=4… > >Ko > >Ngwe Tun told about you. You got to say exactly what you did. Not > >more. > > What do you mean, "what I did". What did I do? When did I do it? > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimy-l mailing list > Wikimy-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l >

3 2

Re: [WikiMy-l] Fwd: Wikia e-mail
by Kyaw Tun 28 Jul '08

28 Jul '08

Dear Michael, I do not quote as we have agreed. But this mailling list is public and easily be googled. So far, only you and Mr Wales want this thread to be private. The thread owner has been reticent indicating that they don't care. Otherwise, I am very agreeable to remove of the referencing. Best, Okisan On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote: > Okisan has published a link to these archives at > http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A47521 > (scroll down to "Mating with FMW"; the link is "the discussion". > > This is a breach of faith. We agreed that the discussion here was to > be private. I don't believe that this is at all proper. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimy-l mailing list > Wikimy-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l >

2 1

Re: [WikiMy-l] Fwd: Wikia e-mail
by Andrew Cunningham 28 Jul '08

28 Jul '08

2008/7/26 Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com> > I don't believe for a minute that users think about the encoding > model of their fonts. > > But I suspect they will care if the rendering of their font is broken. -- Andrew Cunningham Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator State Library of Victoria Australia andrewc(a)vicnet.net.au lang.support(a)gmail.com

1 0

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

Wikimy-l July 2008