Hi All
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around 2000
*since 1992 (check in http://www.myanmars.net/winmyanmar/)*
they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution
*Wrong Information*
4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been published by eTrade (later by Solveaware)
*MyaZedi never based on Unicode Standards Ver.*
failed to deliver a free Unicode Font although it was promised.
*(Why you are saying wrong frequently about Myanmar NLP Lab).*
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in
Unicode 5.0.
*Unicode 4.1 and Unicode 5.0 are same model encoding for Myanmar Unicode*
some government staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system.
*Give Evidance*
**
People think Unicode is experinmental
*only you and some stupid person can't be say as People*
and not going to happen like most other government projects.
*Zawgyi fans are working on those project. They blocked Myanmar Unicode.
Just check in http://www.elibrary.com.mm and http://www.khitlunge.net.mm* *Is
it government funded web sites.
*Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex*
Even making the open source, never try to learn those source. It's not
complex, just needed to try by yourselves*
not good enough for formal web and document.*
What is your scientific measurement in free Unicode Fonts relating formal
web and document? You may try HTML. There are no flaw.*
Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts*
Solveware never try commercial Unicode fonts ever. There are a lot of fonts
developer. I will go further for our language development. Font is very
basic component for Localization. No one started that kind of fundamental
work in burmese, that's why I started that work. I do not make any more
fonts for burmese*
*Totally agree Unicode 5.1 rules can't be applied by copy-cat process. :)*
Best
--NT
--
In Burmese; Ngwe mean 1) Silver 2) Money 3) Second Awards; Tun mean 1) Light
2) be prominent.
There's one thing I can say about, the typeface quality. Almost ALL ASCII
fonts which are used in these day's publications are converting to Unicode
while pseudo-unicode developers are fighting a font war. You can see here
http://www.mymyanmar.net/2g/feats.php?f=universal. Even ZawGyi's typeface
designer, U Zaw Win Myat generously gave me the rights to convert ZawGyi
typeface to Unicode. And I can say a few number of BIG publishers are using
Unicode 5.1 now. There is nothing you need to worry about typeface. And I
cannot see a COMMERCIAL unicode 5.1 font yet.
I suspect I cannot get people to believe unicode is the right solution if
there aren't people who are saying pseudo-unicode fonts are better.
Htoo
On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 7:43 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote:
> At 21:51 +0900 2008-07-26, Kyaw Tun wrote:
>
> My statement is not to interpret literally. Please ask your partner, Myint
>> Htoo Naing, what I mean it is.
>>
>
> He is not my partner, he is my colleague.
>
> If it looks like government stuff, it is very difficult to get people
>> trust.
>>
>
> But you have to teach them.
>
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
Thanks for your input. We do accept donation. It is non-profit
organization<http://www.myanmarwikipedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:community>having
same policy as Wikipedia Foundation.
We will correct donation page description.
Thanks,
Okisan
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote:
> At 09:23 +0900 2008-07-27, Kyaw Tun wrote:
>
> >OK. You have been kicked out from
> ><http://myanmarwikipedia.org/>myanmarwikipedia.org. No more testing.
>
> Well, this is troubling. And so is this
>
> http://www.myanmarwikipedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Myanmar_Wikipedia:Site…
> where it appears that the owners of that version are trying to use
> the Wikipedia's name to make some money. There's even a PayPal link.
>
> And yet Okisan has attacked me and Htoo Myint Naung on public forums,
> alleging that we are trying to use my.wikipedia.org to make money
> from users. Isn't that strange? And the reason he did it? Because of
> the content of a newspaper article.
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimy-l mailing list
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l
>
Dear Mr Jimbo Wales and all,
I would like to explain more detail the questions by last two e-mails by Mr
Jimbo Wales. I do have great respect for them, but thing get out of control
regarding the issue. The problem is to be solved by understanding user
expectation, changing previous mind-set of Unicode experience, educating and
circumventing users' limited facility.
I think it will be more clear if I explain my hypothetical view of Unicode
revolution. Not a revolution, but it really is for Myanmar IT community. I
will be very appreciate if somebody correct I talk something wrong. Since we
have very little information on the web, it is better to talk as one own
knowledge even though it cannot be supported. So I have included my
personal un-comfirmed information as well.
ASCII Myanmar font was introducced around
2000<http://www.myanmarnlp.net.mm/doc/index.htm>and many Myanmar font
has appear since then. I think there will be over 1000
fonts by around 50 publishers, well know being Win, CE, U4 ?. There is no
progress in technology, but created several different keyboard mappings by
different font publishers in attemptation for domination. People wanted to
standarize Myanmar ASCII as well, but did not get concensus. All DTP service
in Myanmar use ASCII font until today. *There is no reason to change Unicode
font* because they can type must faster then by Unicode input solution could
provide. Also wide variety of typeface they can choose from in ASCII where
as there is no good looking Unicode fonts.
There is real need for Unicode in web application and database systems.
Unicode 4.1 was approved. At that time, 4.0 model based MyaZeDi has been
published by eTrade (later by Solveaware) and commerically profitable.
Public funded organization, Myanmar NLP, failed to deliver a free Unicode
Font although it was promised. To give pressure to the organization, a
Zawgyi font (partly based on MyaZeDi) was developed by Alpha
info-tech<http://www.alpha.com.mm/>and released free on 2005. It is
immediately popular on the web and now
*all Myanmar blogs and forum use Zawgyi Font*.
Unicode 4.1 is huge flaw on normalization of Myanmar script and correct in
Unicode 5.0. In Unicode 5.1, a stacker technique was introduced on 2008. All
these changes disrupt Unicode font. People don't have conversion tool from
4.1 --> 5.0 --> 5.1. People hate Unicode solution because some government
staffs are told manually upgrade to new font system. People think Unicode
is experinmental and not going to happen like most other government
projects. Instead Zawgyi keeps 4.0 solution and updated as necessary
basic. Since non-standard Unicode, Zawgyi has leasure of taking up other
invalid codepoints and introduce new things without breaking existing
system.
Web application like CMS, forum, chatroom, wiki, etc can setup using Zawgyi
in no time and have extensive support and documentation from many
places. There are many tools like ASCII (almost any mapping) --> Zawgyi,
input system, dictionary. All of these are free and high quality. Whereas
Unicode deliver low quality and expensive solution.
Unicode 5.1 rendering algorithm is very complex and beyound all font
publishers except MyMyanmar and Solveware. Myanmar NLP also do not have the
technology<http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A39186>.
It is rather obvious that all will oppose Unicode, how good it is. The two
company also give free Unicode font, but not good enough for formal web and
document. Myanmar3 is OK for formal printed document, but not on the web. I
am sure, MyMyanmar and Solveware will release commercial Unicode 5.1 fonts
in appreprioate time when Unicode 5.1 become mainstream.
I hope you will understand why people hate Unicode and love Zawgyi.
PS: If zawgyi 5.1 font is to be developed, please contact to Alpha
Info-Tech. Although alpha is not capable of implementing 5.1, we should pay
for originality.
Okisan
Hi all
as a rule cybercafes tend to be responsive to users. If enough users ask for
Unicode 5.1 support, and there are enough Unicode 5.1 sites, then cybercafes
will support it.
And the reality is that proper Burmese support in applications will be built
on Unicode 5.1, wether its OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, Microsoft
applications, etc
Burmese locale support is Unicode 5.1 based. Line breaking and collation
routines that ake their way into major applications will be Uniocde 5/1
based, etc.
The question is how you facilitate the uptake rather than encouraging people
not to migrate.
2008/7/26 Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>
>
> >1. As mentioned in Ko Ngwe Tun's previous
> >discussion, we use internet cafe computers and
> >have less option for installing new fonts or
> >browser based addon.
>
>
> IT experts in Myanmar should certainly be
> encouraging internet cafés to migrate to Unicode
> 5.1. And if there are Facebook or Flicker sites
> using non-Unicode encodings, those should also be
> encouraged to migrate, as Htoo and I have been
> trying to do with the Wikipedia.
>
I'd agree, but there is one key issue nobody seems to be addressing. Most
users are using a pre-Vista version of Windows, and currently I am unaware
of any legal software solutions for rendering Myanmar Unicode 5.1 on
pre-Vista Windows, other than a handful of specialist SIL applications
running Graphite, and some very old experiemnts in Firefox and OpenOffice
For uptake, it needs to be easy and free or very very cheap.
> >2. Myanmar Unicode has history of breaking
> >previous version and luck of migration support.
> >It is rather strange that there is NO convertor
> >available for myanmar1 (Unicode 4.0) to myanmar2
> >(Unicode 4.1) or myanmar2 to myanmar3 (Unicode
> >5.1).
>
> It isn't Unicode's place to make such a
> converter. The owners of myanmar1, myanmar2, and
> myanmar3 should have a care for the problem. But
> there *are* converters available for text
> conversion.
>
agree, and from memory a nnumber of convertors exist
> >3. Unicode font are not redistributation (yes
>
Some fonts are re distributable, but Uniscribe isn't.
>5. Unicode font input methods are low quality,
> >extra cost or branding. Zawgyi uers has long
> >being enjoy phonetic input.
>
This is a furphy.
There is absolutely no reason why Unicode 5.1 can't be phonetic. Although I
question why it should be phoentic or more properly psuedo-phonetic.
Likewise a keyboard layout could be either based on a logical or visual
keyboard layout.
This is just an implementation issue, the reality is that keyboard layout
developers choose to implement keyboards certain ways, using certain
technologies.
>
> Zawgyi users are forced to encode their language
> texts in a non-standard way. This will only hurt
> them, and Myanmar, in the long run, as it does in
> the short run.
>
From the point of view of keyboard layout design principles the Zawgyi
keyboard layout is sub-optimal with many design problems. Even if you decide
to implement a phonetic keyboard for Unicode 5.1 you would not base it on
the Zawgyi layout. The Zawgyi layout uses teh same approach as legacy 8-bit
fonts essentally. The Zawgyi layout indicates that the font doesn't support
complex rendering, and the layout wasn't implemented for a "smart" input
system.
> >Myanmar Wikipedia should not take the burdon. At
> >bottom line, Wkipedia is providing knowledge,
> >not font. Also people don't think Wikipedia is
> >good enough to install a new font.
>
In part I'd agree, Myanmar Wikipedia should not be a burden. Although I
don't think that avoiding font downlaods solves teh problem.
At some point people will start migrating, Optimising the CSS will allow
people to use any Uniocde 5.1 font they have is a necessary approach.
Hopefully over tiem they determien which font suits tehir needs best. I'd
rather ot tie it to a single font, whether its one particular uniocde 5.1
font or Zawgyi.
--
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia
andrewc(a)vicnet.net.au
lang.support(a)gmail.com
Hi All
Can I clear any doubt on Burmese Localization Situation.
*anyone can use any myanmar Unicode 5.1 - compliant font to look at it.*
For Burmese, It's different from English situation. Microsoft Windows XP and
older operating system are widely used by Burmese People. Microsoft Windows
Vista natively support Burmese Rendering. Ubuntu 8.04 natively support
Burmese Rendering. Main Problem is lack of rendering support by Microsoft
Windows older version. We have to patch/update Uniscribe Rendering Engine in
older Operating System. That's technical issues.
*If there are Unicode 5.1 fonts, perhaps incomplete, perhaps complete, then
fine. People can use those.*
Absolutely, There are no problem concern with fonts. There are 3 Unicode
Fonts for Burmese. At First, my.wikipedia.org is not suited for other
ethnics characters and Buddhist teaching concern. That's fine. Why we need
to wait anymore. But for the Zawgyi fans and old operating system users
might not be seen proper Burmese characters because encoding standards are
different from Zawgyi and Unicode 4.1 What ever we need to think long run. I
strongly recommended to store Unicode 5.1.
*What would the problem be with this? Would it render the site unusable for
people who are using only Zawgyi?*
We should support any Wikipedian who are willing to write with any
font/encoding. But we can convert those input texts with different encoding
by internal converter. It's meaning to say Zawgyi text can be converted into
Unicode 5.1. I suppose to do accessibility problem is key issues for every
language. Michael figured out that multiple platform would be fine. I would
like to propose again that multiple font encoding must support in
my.wikipedia.org
Be clear enough. I do not support storing non-Unicode 5.1 Standards. But we
must support converted HTML in Zawgyi, MyaZedi and such dated Fonts.
Well, Here is solution to put converter in wiki.
http://mmbotconvert.vndv.com/ It's off-line converter for Zawgyi<>Unicode
5.1. It can be engaged with Wiki Textbox. Let me explain 1 scenario, A
Wikipedian will go Myanmar CyberCafe. Cybercafe may not allow to install
Unicode 5.1 Fonts. But In their machine, They installed Zawgyi Font. So, Our
proposed solution is to easily access with installed fonts.
How can we solve user accessibility issues?
Only Javascirpt file, It should be attached in MediaWiki. We have
accomplished converter development in javascript. We are going to test unit
testing in Myanmar Orthography List. So, you may clear that why we are
taking care on non-Unicode Fonts. We had solution to convert those thing.
So, There are no problem in Fonts. Only problem in accessibility issues.
Thanks for your time and effort on Myanmar Wikipedia.
Ngwe Tun
--
In Burmese; Ngwe mean 1) Silver 2) Money 3) Second Awards; Tun mean 1) Light
2) be prominent.
Dear Micheal,
Regarding all my accusation, all topics are open to public forum at Myanmar
IT Professionals <http://www.myanmaritpros.com/>. This forum is
founded by Christopher
Tun <http://www.linkedin.com/in/christophertun>, former CEO of
Inforithm-Maze and first generation Myanmar Unicode Font design. You can
find almost all Myanmar IT perople including Myanmar NLP members.
So false statements are not likely to sustain. The forum has history of
deleting topic on pure public slander. So why not chellenge there?
Best regards,
Okisan
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote:
> At 09:20 +0900 2008-07-27, Kyaw Tun wrote:
>
> >Reality is different. People love Zawgyi (non-gov) over Unicode 5.1
> >(gov). People don't know usefulness of Unicode 5.1, but just know it
> >does't look good. Frankly I don't think people will install Unicode
> >5.1 font, unless there is a change of image.
>
> And what are you doing to actively change that image? Nothing? You've
> set up your own myanmarwikipedia.org, for instance, so they don't
> have to change from your proprietary font to Unicode. Your own
> website suggests that you may never support Unicode 5.1:
>
> http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-Okisan-when%20will%20zawgyi%20be%20unicode%205.1%…
>
> Here you have attacked Htoo
>
> http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-defining_and_defying_the_standard_pada…
> claiming "monopolistic practices by sysops". This is offensive and
> you should not keep this on your website.
>
> This page
>
> http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-going_wrong_with_users_myanmar_wikiped…
> is full of your false allegations.
>
> This comment http://my.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sithu015 made by
> Okisan on a my.wikipedia.org talk page suggests to me that he should
> not be made a sysop, anyway.
>
> On your own front page http://www.zawgyi.org/ you state, wrongly:
> "MyWikipedia Myanmar Wikipedia: Now accepting Unicode 5.1 MyWikipedia
> has secret plan to skip Unicode 5.1 to Unicode 5.2. Unicode 5.2 is
> unheard of, not even Myanmar NLP." This shows that you don't know
> what you are talking about. New Myanmar characters will be added in
> Unicode 5.2 or 6.0 or whatever it will be called, but they will not
> impact the Burmese language; they are for minority languages. Yes,
> Unicode fonts supporting the Myanmar script should, in due course,
> support these characters. And here along with nonsense about "secret
> plans"
>
> http://www.zawgyi.org/usr-zawgyi_one-Myanmar_Wikipedia_Now_accepting_Unicod…
> you have simply said that you do not want my.wikipedia.org to migrate
> to Unicode 5.1: "removing [Zawgyi] out of Myanmar Wikipedia is
> completely unacceptable".
>
> Jimbo, this brings us back to the entente that Andrew and I had about
> how to move things forward.
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimy-l mailing list
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimy-l
>
Dear Micheal,
The news stated that you and your partner Htoo Myint Naung invented the new
Unicode Font, it looks like both of you are king in Myanmar Unicode. But
reality is both of you are not in top of the list in
contribution<http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A43215&pa…>.
I have seen many time you claim that *I am one of the authors of the Unicode
Standard*. Your statement is not comfortable with Ko Ngwe Tun or Ko Ravi. So
you stop saying more than what you did. It did hurt dignity of Myanmar IT
community.
Best regards,
Okisan
On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote:
> At 22:53 +0900 2008-07-26, Kyaw Tun wrote:
> >How come you say The News is not relevent to you or Htoo Myint Naung?
>
> I am not responsible for what is printed in a newspaper that never
> contacted me.
>
> >That is how you claim to other people, isn't? That is how you claim
> >to funding agency, isn't?
>
> I have no idea what you are talking about.
>
> >Please also see how
> ><
> http://my.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship#.28-.29_Oppose
> >Ravi
> >told about you and
> ><
> http://myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A43215&page=4…
> >Ko
> >Ngwe Tun told about you. You got to say exactly what you did. Not
> >more.
>
> What do you mean, "what I did". What did I do? When did I do it?
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
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>
Dear Michael,
I do not quote as we have agreed. But this mailling list is public and
easily be googled.
So far, only you and Mr Wales want this thread to be private. The thread
owner has been reticent indicating that they don't care. Otherwise, I am
very agreeable to remove of the referencing.
Best,
Okisan
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>wrote:
> Okisan has published a link to these archives at
> http://www.myanmaritpros.com/forum/topic/show?id=1445004%3ATopic%3A47521
> (scroll down to "Mating with FMW"; the link is "the discussion".
>
> This is a breach of faith. We agreed that the discussion here was to
> be private. I don't believe that this is at all proper.
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
2008/7/26 Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>
> I don't believe for a minute that users think about the encoding
> model of their fonts.
>
>
But I suspect they will care if the rendering of their font is broken.
--
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia
andrewc(a)vicnet.net.au
lang.support(a)gmail.com