Now that I have thought some more about it, I do feel that the use of fair use images should be limited, but the problem is where do we draw the line? We'd have to ask ourselves if the value of using the images in the book outweighs the legal risk of listing it under fair use, especially if the books will eventually be published in some manner, as I presume is one eventual goal for any book on the project. I think that only in extreme cases (such as maybe those european history images) should fair use be presumed, and these cases should be clearly defined, perhaps on a case-by-case or strict categorical basis.
As for textual quotations, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the presumption of fair use for these (provided they are properly cited of course) is more common than the presumption of fair use for images. If we're going to do that we'll need some kind of standard method to describe the rationale for the fair use argument, like wikipedia has for images (i.e. this is a screenshot used only for illustration, this is a low-res company logo used to show what it looks like, etc).
Speaking of citation, one problem with current fair use images is that a lot of them don't really cite the source properly; i.e. who created it? From what source was it derived? This information should be in the image page, but often they just have descriptions of what the image is, not where it came from or who the current copyright holder is, which can cause problems of its own.
Regards,
Mattb112885
On 2/16/07, textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Textbook-l mailing list submissions to textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at textbook-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Textbook-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Regarding fair use (Iamunknown)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Textbook-l] Regarding fair use I really don't want fair use to go totally away, but I agree that it should be significantly limited. The clause, "Because of our commitment to free content, this non-free media should not be used when it is reasonably possible to replace with free media that would serve the same educational purpose," in Kat Walsh's statement comes to mind. While I have expreseed concern on-wiki and on-mailing list before about unlicensed images, many which, if licensed properly, would remained unlicensed and used under fair use, I think that we should not outright ban unlicensed content used under fair use. In particular, we should allow very very limited use of non-free media when it would be practically impossible to use free media -- the media used in the European History wikibook comes to mind -- and for small textual quotations. What are everyone else's feelings?
-Iamunknown
--===============8126416904983688626==-- _______________________________________________ Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
It's more then just our legal risk in keeping those images and text. Under US copyright law, we should be legally allowed to use some copyrighted material under fair use guidelines without causing any problems. There are several problems with fair use: 1) Fair Use only applies in the US and a small handful of other countries. In countries where fair use is not legal, all instances of it are considered copyright infringement. In these countries, it is not legal to print or distribute wikibooks containing fair use media. 2) Fair use, or other limited licensing (such as "the author allows this image to be used on wikibooks only") reduces our ability to print, distribute, and modify our texts. Derivative works, a cornerstone of the GFDL are not compatable with fair use, and using two incompatable licenses on a single aggregate project (such as a wikibook) is simply not possible. 3) Many people assume that text or an image can be released under fair use when it can't be. Images that are uploaded under "fair use" are usually (as you pointed out) not properly tagged or referenced. These instances of misuse do constitute copyright infringement, and that could bring lawsuits. We allowed fair use for a pretty long time on our project, but it isn't the kind of fight that we should be pursuing any longer. There are too many problems with it. -
--Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)
From: "Matthew Benedict" mattb112885@gmail.com Reply-To: Wikimedia textbook discussion textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Textbook-l Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0500
Now that I have thought some more about it, I do feel that the use of fair use images should be limited, but the problem is where do we draw the line? We'd have to ask ourselves if the value of using the images in the book outweighs the legal risk of listing it under fair use, especially if the books will eventually be published in some manner, as I presume is one eventual goal for any book on the project. I think that only in extreme cases (such as maybe those european history images) should fair use be presumed, and these cases should be clearly defined, perhaps on a case-by-case or strict categorical basis.
As for textual quotations, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the presumption of fair use for these (provided they are properly cited of course) is more common than the presumption of fair use for images. If we're going to do that we'll need some kind of standard method to describe the rationale for the fair use argument, like wikipedia has for images (i.e. this is a screenshot used only for illustration, this is a low-res company logo used to show what it looks like, etc).
Speaking of citation, one problem with current fair use images is that a lot of them don't really cite the source properly; i.e. who created it? From what source was it derived? This information should be in the image page, but often they just have descriptions of what the image is, not where it came from or who the current copyright holder is, which can cause problems of its own.
Regards,
Mattb112885
On 2/16/07, textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Textbook-l mailing list submissions to textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at textbook-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Textbook-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Regarding fair use (Iamunknown)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Textbook-l] Regarding fair use I really don't want fair use to go totally away, but I agree that it
should
be significantly limited. The clause, "Because of our commitment to free content, this non-free media should not be used when it is reasonably possible to replace with free media that would serve the same
educational
purpose," in Kat Walsh's statement comes to mind. While I have expreseed concern on-wiki and on-mailing list before about unlicensed images, many which, if licensed properly, would remained unlicensed and used under
fair
use, I think that we should not outright ban unlicensed content used
under
fair use. In particular, we should allow very very limited use of
non-free
media when it would be practically impossible to use free media -- the
media
used in the European History wikibook comes to mind -- and for small
textual
quotations. What are everyone else's feelings?
-Iamunknown
--===============8126416904983688626==-- _______________________________________________ Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
_________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more .then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
What I consider terrifying is the fact that the statute of limitations for copyright infringement in the United States is very ambiguous: technically, it is only three years, but there are numerous contradictory cases.
Consider this example. I publish a book in August 2005. Another person copies an entire chapter in December 2005 without permission and for profit, directly infringing upon my exclusive right to the material, including it in their book. Their book is published September 2006. A second edition is published September 2007. It is still on the market for several years to come. Courts might consider the December 2005 copy the original date of infringement, others might consider the September 2006, the 2007, or even the later dates when the book is still being published. Furthermore, there is ambiguity as to whether one can sue for damages only based on the past three years, or on the entire time the infringement (in this case) was in print.
I know that it is pure speculation and copyright paranoia, but it is frightening. Also, I want to say that even if we decide what we would like to limit (or outright ban) regarding fair use, we should: (1) wait for the official statement from the board and (2) get help from foundation-l or more qualified legal personnel. But I would certainly support discussion about what we would like to allow or disallow. Also, I think we should seriously consider cleaning out our fair use archives...I can testify from roving through the subcategories of [[:Category:Wikibooks images]] that we have a lot of things that should never be considered fair use.
-Iamunknown
On 2/16/07, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@hotmail.com wrote:
It's more then just our legal risk in keeping those images and text. Under US copyright law, we should be legally allowed to use some copyrighted material under fair use guidelines without causing any problems. There are several problems with fair use:
- Fair Use only applies in the US and a small handful of other countries.
In countries where fair use is not legal, all instances of it are considered copyright infringement. In these countries, it is not legal to print or distribute wikibooks containing fair use media. 2) Fair use, or other limited licensing (such as "the author allows this image to be used on wikibooks only") reduces our ability to print, distribute, and modify our texts. Derivative works, a cornerstone of the GFDL are not compatable with fair use, and using two incompatable licenses on a single aggregate project (such as a wikibook) is simply not possible. 3) Many people assume that text or an image can be released under fair use when it can't be. Images that are uploaded under "fair use" are usually (as you pointed out) not properly tagged or referenced. These instances of misuse do constitute copyright infringement, and that could bring lawsuits. We allowed fair use for a pretty long time on our project, but it isn't the kind of fight that we should be pursuing any longer. There are too many problems with it. -
--Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)
From: "Matthew Benedict" mattb112885@gmail.com Reply-To: Wikimedia textbook discussion textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Textbook-l Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0500
Now that I have thought some more about it, I do feel that the use of fair use images should be limited, but the problem is where do we draw the line? We'd have to ask ourselves if the value of using the images in the book outweighs the legal risk of listing it under fair use, especially if the books will eventually be published in some manner, as I presume is one eventual goal for any book on the project. I think that only in extreme cases (such as maybe those european history images) should fair use be presumed, and these cases should be clearly defined, perhaps on a case-by-case or strict categorical basis.
As for textual quotations, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the presumption of fair use for these (provided they are properly cited of course) is more common than the presumption of fair use for images. If we're going to do that we'll need some kind of standard method to describe the rationale for the fair use argument, like wikipedia has for images (i.e. this is a screenshot used only for illustration, this is a low-res company logo used to show what it looks like, etc).
Speaking of citation, one problem with current fair use images is that a lot of them don't really cite the source properly; i.e. who created it? From what source was it derived? This information should be in the image page, but often they just have descriptions of what the image is, not where it came from or who the current copyright holder is, which can cause problems of its own.
Regards,
Mattb112885
On 2/16/07, textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Textbook-l mailing list submissions to textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at textbook-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Textbook-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Regarding fair use (Iamunknown)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Textbook-l] Regarding fair use I really don't want fair use to go totally away, but I agree that it
should
be significantly limited. The clause, "Because of our commitment to free content, this non-free media should not be used when it is reasonably possible to replace with free media that would serve the same
educational
purpose," in Kat Walsh's statement comes to mind. While I have expreseed concern on-wiki and on-mailing list before about unlicensed images, many which, if licensed properly, would remained unlicensed and used under
fair
use, I think that we should not outright ban unlicensed content used
under
fair use. In particular, we should allow very very limited use of
non-free
media when it would be practically impossible to use free media -- the
media
used in the European History wikibook comes to mind -- and for small
textual
quotations. What are everyone else's feelings?
-Iamunknown
--===============8126416904983688626==-- _______________________________________________ Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Regardless of the strictness of the upcoming official statement from the Foundation, I think our local fair use policy should stipulate that fair use should only be used when absolutely necessary AND when no PD/copyleft equivalent exists. Images with stipulations that restrict re-use should also be disallowed. If someone is creating an image specifically for a Wikibook it should be released under the GFDL to ensure the maximum compatibility.
I don't think we should go all the way and insist on Commons only, as this would make many history books difficult to write--it's unlikely some dead German general is going to claim copyright over a photograph of himself, but if Commons was the only way such images would be impossible.
The goal is to find a happy medium, and watch non-free uses closely. Other sites have had trouble with people tagging fair use images as PD or GFDL-self, so we'll need to watch for that too. I don't think this is an impossible goal, however.
--Garrett (I almost signed with ~~~~)
On 17/02/07, Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com wrote:
What I consider terrifying is the fact that the statute of limitations for copyright infringement in the United States is very ambiguous: technically, it is only three years, but there are numerous contradictory cases.
Consider this example. I publish a book in August 2005. Another person copies an entire chapter in December 2005 without permission and for profit, directly infringing upon my exclusive right to the material, including it in their book. Their book is published September 2006. A second edition is published September 2007. It is still on the market for several years to come. Courts might consider the December 2005 copy the original date of infringement, others might consider the September 2006, the 2007, or even the later dates when the book is still being published. Furthermore, there is ambiguity as to whether one can sue for damages only based on the past three years, or on the entire time the infringement (in this case) was in print.
I know that it is pure speculation and copyright paranoia, but it is frightening. Also, I want to say that even if we decide what we would like to limit (or outright ban) regarding fair use, we should: (1) wait for the official statement from the board and (2) get help from foundation-l or more qualified legal personnel. But I would certainly support discussion about what we would like to allow or disallow. Also, I think we should seriously consider cleaning out our fair use archives...I can testify from roving through the subcategories of [[:Category:Wikibooks images]] that we have a lot of things that should never be considered fair use.
-Iamunknown
On 2/16/07, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@hotmail.com wrote:
It's more then just our legal risk in keeping those images and text.
Under
US copyright law, we should be legally allowed to use some copyrighted material under fair use guidelines without causing any problems. There
are
several problems with fair use:
- Fair Use only applies in the US and a small handful of other
countries.
In countries where fair use is not legal, all instances of it are
considered
copyright infringement. In these countries, it is not legal to print or distribute wikibooks containing fair use media. 2) Fair use, or other limited licensing (such as "the author allows this image to be used on wikibooks only") reduces our ability to print, distribute, and modify our texts. Derivative works, a cornerstone of the GFDL are not compatable with fair use, and using two incompatable
licenses
on a single aggregate project (such as a wikibook) is simply not
possible.
- Many people assume that text or an image can be released under fair
use
when it can't be. Images that are uploaded under "fair use" are usually
(as
you pointed out) not properly tagged or referenced. These instances of misuse do constitute copyright infringement, and that could bring
lawsuits.
We allowed fair use for a pretty long time on our project, but it isn't
the
kind of fight that we should be pursuing any longer. There are too many problems with it. -
--Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)
From: "Matthew Benedict" mattb112885@gmail.com Reply-To: Wikimedia textbook discussion <textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Textbook-l Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0500
Now that I have thought some more about it, I do feel that the use of fair use images should be limited, but the problem is where do we draw the line? We'd have to ask ourselves if the value of using the images in the book outweighs the legal risk of listing it under fair use, especially if the books will eventually be published in some manner, as I presume is one eventual goal for any book on the project. I think that only in extreme cases (such as maybe those european history images) should fair use be presumed, and these cases should be clearly defined, perhaps on a case-by-case or strict categorical basis.
As for textual quotations, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the presumption of fair use for these (provided they are properly cited of course) is more common than the presumption of fair use for images. If we're going to do that we'll need some kind of standard method to describe the rationale for the fair use argument, like wikipedia has for images (i.e. this is a screenshot used only for illustration, this is a low-res company logo used to show what it looks like, etc).
Speaking of citation, one problem with current fair use images is that a lot of them don't really cite the source properly; i.e. who created it? From what source was it derived? This information should be in the image page, but often they just have descriptions of what the image is, not where it came from or who the current copyright holder is, which can cause problems of its own.
Regards,
Mattb112885
On 2/16/07, textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Textbook-l mailing list submissions to textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at textbook-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Textbook-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Regarding fair use (Iamunknown)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Textbook-l] Regarding fair use I really don't want fair use to go totally away, but I agree that it
should
be significantly limited. The clause, "Because of our commitment to
free
content, this non-free media should not be used when it is
reasonably
possible to replace with free media that would serve the same
educational
purpose," in Kat Walsh's statement comes to mind. While I have
expreseed
concern on-wiki and on-mailing list before about unlicensed images,
many
which, if licensed properly, would remained unlicensed and used
under
fair
use, I think that we should not outright ban unlicensed content used
under
fair use. In particular, we should allow very very limited use of
non-free
media when it would be practically impossible to use free media --
the
media
used in the European History wikibook comes to mind -- and for small
textual
quotations. What are everyone else's feelings?
-Iamunknown
--===============8126416904983688626==-- _______________________________________________ Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best
route!
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
I agree with Garrett entirely. Even if we do continue to allow fair use, we should certainly put on some restrictions, especially considering the legal issues that fair use bring. Fair use media certainly may be helpful to textbook writers such as ourselves, but it does nothing but create unnecessary complications among textbook printers and readers (who are the majority of our wikibooks audience).
A fair use image should never be used when an acceptable copyleft or PD image is available, or when an acceptable image can be created and released under such a license.
--Andrew Whitworth
From: Garrett masterthiefster@gmail.com Reply-To: Wikimedia textbook discussion textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org To: "Wikimedia textbook discussion" textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Textbook-l Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:45:38 +1300
Regardless of the strictness of the upcoming official statement from the Foundation, I think our local fair use policy should stipulate that fair use should only be used when absolutely necessary AND when no PD/copyleft equivalent exists. Images with stipulations that restrict re-use should also be disallowed. If someone is creating an image specifically for a Wikibook it should be released under the GFDL to ensure the maximum compatibility.
I don't think we should go all the way and insist on Commons only, as this would make many history books difficult to write--it's unlikely some dead German general is going to claim copyright over a photograph of himself, but if Commons was the only way such images would be impossible.
The goal is to find a happy medium, and watch non-free uses closely. Other sites have had trouble with people tagging fair use images as PD or GFDL-self, so we'll need to watch for that too. I don't think this is an impossible goal, however.
--Garrett (I almost signed with ~~~~)
On 17/02/07, Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com wrote:
What I consider terrifying is the fact that the statute of limitations for copyright infringement in the United States is very ambiguous: technically, it is only three years, but there are numerous contradictory cases.
Consider this example. I publish a book in August 2005. Another person copies an entire chapter in December 2005 without permission and for profit, directly infringing upon my exclusive right to the material, including it in their book. Their book is published September 2006. A second edition is published September 2007. It is still on the market for several years to come. Courts might consider the December 2005 copy the original date of infringement, others might consider the September 2006, the 2007, or even the later dates when the book is still being published. Furthermore, there is ambiguity as to whether one can sue for damages only based on the past three years, or on the entire time the infringement (in this case) was in print.
I know that it is pure speculation and copyright paranoia, but it is frightening. Also, I want to say that even if we decide what we would like to limit (or outright ban) regarding fair use, we should: (1) wait for the official statement from the board and (2) get help from foundation-l or more qualified legal personnel. But I would certainly support discussion about what we would like to allow or disallow. Also, I think we should seriously consider cleaning out our fair use archives...I can testify from roving through the subcategories of [[:Category:Wikibooks images]] that we have a lot of things that should never be considered fair use.
-Iamunknown
On 2/16/07, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@hotmail.com wrote:
It's more then just our legal risk in keeping those images and text.
Under
US copyright law, we should be legally allowed to use some copyrighted material under fair use guidelines without causing any problems. There
are
several problems with fair use:
- Fair Use only applies in the US and a small handful of other
countries.
In countries where fair use is not legal, all instances of it are
considered
copyright infringement. In these countries, it is not legal to print
or
distribute wikibooks containing fair use media. 2) Fair use, or other limited licensing (such as "the author allows
this
image to be used on wikibooks only") reduces our ability to print, distribute, and modify our texts. Derivative works, a cornerstone of
the
GFDL are not compatable with fair use, and using two incompatable
licenses
on a single aggregate project (such as a wikibook) is simply not
possible.
- Many people assume that text or an image can be released under fair
use
when it can't be. Images that are uploaded under "fair use" are
usually
(as
you pointed out) not properly tagged or referenced. These instances of misuse do constitute copyright infringement, and that could bring
lawsuits.
We allowed fair use for a pretty long time on our project, but it
isn't
the
kind of fight that we should be pursuing any longer. There are too
many
problems with it. -
--Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)
From: "Matthew Benedict" mattb112885@gmail.com Reply-To: Wikimedia textbook discussion
<textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Textbook-l Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0500
Now that I have thought some more about it, I do feel that the use of fair use images should be limited, but the problem is where do we
draw
the line? We'd have to ask ourselves if the value of using the images in the book outweighs the legal risk of listing it under fair use, especially if the books will eventually be published in some manner, as I presume is one eventual goal for any book on the project. I
think
that only in extreme cases (such as maybe those european history images) should fair use be presumed, and these cases should be
clearly
defined, perhaps on a case-by-case or strict categorical basis.
As for textual quotations, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the presumption of fair use for these (provided they are properly cited
of
course) is more common than the presumption of fair use for images.
If
we're going to do that we'll need some kind of standard method to describe the rationale for the fair use argument, like wikipedia has for images (i.e. this is a screenshot used only for illustration,
this
is a low-res company logo used to show what it looks like, etc).
Speaking of citation, one problem with current fair use images is
that
a lot of them don't really cite the source properly; i.e. who created it? From what source was it derived? This information should be in
the
image page, but often they just have descriptions of what the image is, not where it came from or who the current copyright holder is, which can cause problems of its own.
Regards,
Mattb112885
On 2/16/07, textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Textbook-l mailing list submissions to textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to textbook-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at textbook-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
than "Re: Contents of Textbook-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Regarding fair use (Iamunknown)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Iamunknown iamunknown@gmail.com To: textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Textbook-l] Regarding fair use I really don't want fair use to go totally away, but I agree that
it
should
be significantly limited. The clause, "Because of our commitment
to
free
content, this non-free media should not be used when it is
reasonably
possible to replace with free media that would serve the same
educational
purpose," in Kat Walsh's statement comes to mind. While I have
expreseed
concern on-wiki and on-mailing list before about unlicensed
images,
many
which, if licensed properly, would remained unlicensed and used
under
fair
use, I think that we should not outright ban unlicensed content
used
under
fair use. In particular, we should allow very very limited use of
non-free
media when it would be practically impossible to use free media --
the
media
used in the European History wikibook comes to mind -- and for
small
textual
quotations. What are everyone else's feelings?
-Iamunknown
--===============8126416904983688626==-- _______________________________________________ Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
Textbook-l mailing list Textbook-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
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On 2/20/07, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Garrett entirely. Even if we do continue to allow fair use, we should certainly put on some restrictions, especially considering the legal issues that fair use bring. Fair use media certainly may be helpful to textbook writers such as ourselves, but it does nothing but create unnecessary complications among textbook printers and readers (who are the majority of our wikibooks audience).
A fair use image should never be used when an acceptable copyleft or PD image is available, or when an acceptable image can be created and released under such a license.
--Andrew Whitworth
I agree entirely. While an outright ban may be too difficult, I think we should avoid copyright images, even if they are within fair use. There are just too many issues to bring up.
--Dragontamer
percy tiglao wrote:
On 2/20/07, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@hotmail.com wrote:
A fair use image should never be used when an acceptable copyleft or PD image is available, or when an acceptable image can be created and released under such a license.
--Andrew Whitworth
I agree entirely. While an outright ban may be too difficult, I think we should avoid copyright images, even if they are within fair use. There are just too many issues to bring up.
--Dragontamer
I apologize that I haven't been up on this discussion, as my computer (and hard drive, etc.) crashed to a completely unrecoverable state over the past couple of weeks.
I also apologize in part to the Wikibooks community as I seemed to have initiated the current fair-use discussion that seems to have touched a chord among the WMF board, particularly with Brad Patrick as well as others.
Fair-use images has been something of a perennial topic for Wikimedia projects, including Wikibooks. For the most part on Wikibooks, we have been fortunate enough that the actual usage of fair use has been generally quite light, even before image license tagging became vogue for Wikimedia projects. Perhaps the largest "offenders" of fair-use images on Wikibooks in the past was the video game wikibooks, which is clearly a whole other topic of discussion by itself. The issue there in regards to fair-use images was mainly the abuse of screen captures and using parts of the video game in what was often decorative uses of the design elements of the video games rather than specific critical commentary where fair-use rationale would be much more justified.
In an attempt to avoid some of the hassles that Wikipedia is currently facing, and upon reading several fair-use discussions on the foundation-l mailing list, I created the current Wikibooks Fair-use policy. While this is a proposed policy, it is in defacto enforcement right now, and pretty much current practice throughout Wikibooks. I am not suggesting that this should be the only reason to delete content or that it would certainly be something worthy of a VfD, but it does give a basis to try and limit fair-use on Wikibooks.
That was really the reason I wrote the policy. I felt that in most cases those who were strong advocates of fair-use have in the past tried to expand the definition to the point that I have a very hard time trying to see what the real limit would actually be. In many cases on Wikipedia, I see images that I consider to be simply a copyright violation, but fair-use is being asserted instead. I did not want to see that sort of attitude creep into Wikibooks.
I will also admit that this is an issue that I have had to study up on and learn over time, where I've even made mistakes on Wikibooks and other Wikimedia projects in the past with images I thought at the time could be justified through fair-use rationale but I now feel really were a simple copyright violation. As far as I know, these images have now all been deleted, even though in most cases there didn't seem to be a reasonable alternative.
The justification that is being used often by those promoting fair-use is usually that they can't find any other alternative to obtaining an image or illustration, so fair-use is the only real way to get the content. My counter argument is that it is still a copyright violation unless the image is being used for "critical commentary" in most cases. Since Wikibooks (and Wikipedia) both have "no original research" and "NPOV" policies, I find it hard to see where you can write an editorial review that can retain those two pillars that would warrant the inclusion of fair-use images. Oh, there are some very valiant attempts to do just that, but it seems to be over the top, and those articles and books tend to be the most controversial and problematic in terms of trying reach a consensus as well.
I would also like to say that the big posting that was made on foundation-l (and referenced/republished on the Wikimedia Commons) really had only one very substantial policy point regarding Wikimedia projects: Wikimedia projects may not accept images that are "for use only on that project or Wikimedia projects". I don't know of a single case where that has been done or accepted on Wikibooks, but it has been something considered acceptable in the past on Wikipedia and still persists even now, even though current Wikipedia policy is to not allow new images to be uploaded using that philosophy. IMHO the most glaring example of this is the [[w:Image:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg]], where the Associated Press granted formal copyright permission to the WMF for this image to be used on Wikipedia. While normally this would be an outstanding donation, the AP insisted that no derivative uses of this image could be used, hence it technically violates the GFDL even though it is being used "with permission". Since Wikibooks isn't dealing with this issue, the rest of that posting really didn't have, as far as I could see particularly with [[WB:FUP]] as has been written earlier, any significant impact on Wikibooks as a project other than affirming the need to have a policy at least as restrictive as has been proposed here.
In framing my arguments about fair-use, I have insisted that the GFDL plays a vital role in determining what exactly would be proper for Wikimedia projects. I do believe that fair-use rationale can be used within GFDL'd content, as somebody re-using and republishing GFDL'd content that includes fair-use content (such as quotes or a reasonable fair-use photo) can also use the same fair use material under the same rationale. But justifications such as educational fair use or non-commercial publications (citing the WMF non-profit status) can't be used precisely because that would not necessarily be transferable to other users of that GFDL'd content. The reasons for using the content must by its nature be very much restricted. At the same time, I think there is room for some limited fair-use images within Wikibooks.
From: Robert Horning robert_horning@netzero.net I apologize that I haven't been up on this discussion, as my computer (and hard drive, etc.) crashed to a completely unrecoverable state over the past couple of weeks.
My heart goes out to you, I've suffered the same in the past. Nothing ruins your agenda like a complete computer failure.
... The reasons for using the content must by its nature be very much restricted. At the same time, I think there is room for some limited fair-use images within Wikibooks.
The issue always seems to come back to one of heavy restrictions on fair use to the point that all images tagged as "fair use" should be viewed with absolute scrutiny. There are few instances where fair use are "required", and plenty of opportunity for people to abuse fair use, or misuse it out of ignorance, and those misuses can be dangerous for our project. I've made my opinion on this known, and I won't continue to kick this poor horse any further.
What I envision (a vision that is likely not to gather much support) is the uploading of all images (or nearly all images) to commons, and almost banning outright image uploads to our server. This serves a variety of purposes. Foremost is that commons is staffed by more people who are knowledgeable and proficient at dealing with images and copyright licensing. The few fair use images that don't qualify at commons could be uploaded to wikibooks, and those select few could be examined through the proper lenses. I am not trying to start a discussion on this issue here, i'm just trying to draw a complete portrait of my intent.
I do want to hear what the WMF has to say officially about fair use (it was mentioned that they had a statement on it "forthcoming") before we start making any radical alterations to our policy pages.
--Andrew Whitworth
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