Whoops this was meant to be to the public mailing list!
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org Date: Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:39 PM Subject: Non-JavaScript Flow: Hiding non-ready functionality To: "Editor engagement list for the core E2 development team." e2@lists.wikimedia.org
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
Recently in the last retrospective the Flow team agreed to record on the mailing list decisions, and since this decision happened prior to the meeting (about 3/4 weeks ago) I should try my best to record that decision.
May, Danny, Shahyar and I sat down and spoke about the non-JavaScript version of the site, in particular with respect to mobile, as many mobile devices on slow connections will hit the non-JS site at some point.
The summary was that the current non-js needed lots of love, but that we should focus on the topic and reply workflows (which are currently being looked on as part of this iteration [1])
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional. The link to summarize for instance will take you to a page like this:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
The page simply shows a textarea and doesn't really help you understand what you are doing.
Likewise clicking edit title takes you to a page like so: http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
Displaying them again is pretty easy (Shahyar already has a patch [2]) but the UX love is much needed before doing so.
[1] https://trello.com/c/fp2odUa3/531-g-1-mobile-no-js-make-reply-field-a-link-t... [2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153354
I reluctantly agreed to this. Personally, I'd rather have them there than not at all. We should definitely spend some time working on fixing it up; it's been sitting like this for far too long at this point.
--Shahyar
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
Whoops this was meant to be to the public mailing list!
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org Date: Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:39 PM Subject: Non-JavaScript Flow: Hiding non-ready functionality To: "Editor engagement list for the core E2 development team." e2@lists.wikimedia.org
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
Recently in the last retrospective the Flow team agreed to record on the mailing list decisions, and since this decision happened prior to the meeting (about 3/4 weeks ago) I should try my best to record that decision.
May, Danny, Shahyar and I sat down and spoke about the non-JavaScript version of the site, in particular with respect to mobile, as many mobile devices on slow connections will hit the non-JS site at some point.
The summary was that the current non-js needed lots of love, but that we should focus on the topic and reply workflows (which are currently being looked on as part of this iteration [1])
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional. The link to summarize for instance will take you to a page like this:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
The page simply shows a textarea and doesn't really help you understand what you are doing.
Likewise clicking edit title takes you to a page like so:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
Displaying them again is pretty easy (Shahyar already has a patch [2]) but the UX love is much needed before doing so.
[1] https://trello.com/c/fp2odUa3/531-g-1-mobile-no-js-make-reply-field-a-link-t... [2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153354
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
Personally, I believe it should have been built with non-JavaScript in mind from the offset. Yes it has been sitting around for some time, but ignoring this for the time being has let the team focus on polishing more important workflows and personally I believe we were irresponsible in it not being built more carefully.
There have been far too many bugs raised (recently we discovered the preview workflow was broken for example [1] - something which should never have happened, and wouldn't have happened, had it been created carefully with this use case in mind and with tests - I don't believe there are many tests for a lot of these workflows).
We need to take more care about what we put out in front of our users. The Non-JavaScript experience is not just the people who disable it manually, but also hits our users on slower connections and users with browsers we do not support e.g. IE6 and soon IE7.
We should take every opportunity to be careful that we do not expose them to bad user experiences. We must remember Flow still needs to prove itself and be accepted by the community and anything that might hurt that goal should be hidden.
[1] https://trello.com/c/GgRcBXf0/553-g-3a-preview-in-no-js-edit-reply-add
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Shahyar Ghobadpour sghobadpour@wikimedia.org wrote:
I reluctantly agreed to this. Personally, I'd rather have them there than not at all. We should definitely spend some time working on fixing it up; it's been sitting like this for far too long at this point.
--Shahyar
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
Whoops this was meant to be to the public mailing list!
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org Date: Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:39 PM Subject: Non-JavaScript Flow: Hiding non-ready functionality To: "Editor engagement list for the core E2 development team." e2@lists.wikimedia.org
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
Recently in the last retrospective the Flow team agreed to record on the mailing list decisions, and since this decision happened prior to the meeting (about 3/4 weeks ago) I should try my best to record that decision.
May, Danny, Shahyar and I sat down and spoke about the non-JavaScript version of the site, in particular with respect to mobile, as many mobile devices on slow connections will hit the non-JS site at some point.
The summary was that the current non-js needed lots of love, but that we should focus on the topic and reply workflows (which are currently being looked on as part of this iteration [1])
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional. The link to summarize for instance will take you to a page like this:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
The page simply shows a textarea and doesn't really help you understand what you are doing.
Likewise clicking edit title takes you to a page like so:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
Displaying them again is pretty easy (Shahyar already has a patch [2]) but the UX love is much needed before doing so.
[1] https://trello.com/c/fp2odUa3/531-g-1-mobile-no-js-make-reply-field-a-link-t... [2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153354
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Shahyar Ghobadpour sghobadpour@wikimedia.org wrote:
I reluctantly agreed to this. Personally, I'd rather have them there than not at all. We should definitely spend some time working on fixing it up; it's been sitting like this for far too long at this point.
--Shahyar
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
Whoops this was meant to be to the public mailing list!
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org Date: Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:39 PM Subject: Non-JavaScript Flow: Hiding non-ready functionality To: "Editor engagement list for the core E2 development team." e2@lists.wikimedia.org
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
Recently in the last retrospective the Flow team agreed to record on the mailing list decisions, and since this decision happened prior to the meeting (about 3/4 weeks ago) I should try my best to record that decision.
May, Danny, Shahyar and I sat down and spoke about the non-JavaScript version of the site, in particular with respect to mobile, as many mobile devices on slow connections will hit the non-JS site at some point.
The summary was that the current non-js needed lots of love, but that we should focus on the topic and reply workflows (which are currently being looked on as part of this iteration [1])
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional. The link to summarize for instance will take you to a page like this:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
The page simply shows a textarea and doesn't really help you understand what you are doing.
Likewise clicking edit title takes you to a page like so:
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S15sspioi5wvqzm...
Displaying them again is pretty easy (Shahyar already has a patch [2]) but the UX love is much needed before doing so.
[1] https://trello.com/c/fp2odUa3/531-g-1-mobile-no-js-make-reply-field-a-link-t... [2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153354
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
... Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional.
Thanks for the explanation. But e.g. the Permalink action is perfectly functional in no-JS. Are y'all going to revive that one action menu item, or wait for everything in the menu to get to the same quality level as no-JS reply before enabling it?
I would not object to restoring permalink but I worry the list might look rather empty without it. I'd rather we put effort into improving UX. I doubt that would be too much work, but it needs design input and prioritisation.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 8:25 PM, S Page spage@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
...
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional.
Thanks for the explanation. But e.g. the Permalink action is perfectly functional in no-JS. Are y'all going to revive that one action menu item, or wait for everything in the menu to get to the same quality level as no-JS reply before enabling it?
-- =S Page Features engineer
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
It was built with non-JS in mind. What you are referring to, however, is the flash of pre-JS styling. flow-menu should look fine in no-JS mode, because it's implemented with CSS only. Only older browsers require JS to make it work. However, I made some errors during the implementation, and exposed the more ugly version initially. This is something to be rectified.
--Shahyar
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would not object to restoring permalink but I worry the list might look rather empty without it. I'd rather we put effort into improving UX. I doubt that would be too much work, but it needs design input and prioritisation.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 8:25 PM, S Page spage@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org
wrote:
I noticed in a code review today that S was confused to why actions are unavailable in titlebar and posts
(.client-nojs .flow-menu" has display:none in CSS)
...
Any functions that didn't fit into this, where the UX was suboptimal would be hidden, even if they were functional.
Thanks for the explanation. But e.g. the Permalink action is perfectly functional in no-JS. Are y'all going to revive that one action menu
item,
or wait for everything in the menu to get to the same quality level as
no-JS
reply before enabling it?
-- =S Page Features engineer
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
No I'm not talking about the flash of pre-JS styling. I'm talking about the pages you land on when you click the buttons.
To give 2 examples of bad non-JavaScript experiences... hopefully they do not need an explanation to why they are bad. http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219hsaxe6j5298...
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219hsaxe6j5298...
This on the other hand I consider a good experience after the efforts we put in... :) http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219eozbe3zlhj5...
Ah ha, I misunderstood. Yes, *those* definitely need improvement!
--Shahyar
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
No I'm not talking about the flash of pre-JS styling. I'm talking about the pages you land on when you click the buttons.
To give 2 examples of bad non-JavaScript experiences... hopefully they do not need an explanation to why they are bad.
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219hsaxe6j5298...
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219hsaxe6j5298...
This on the other hand I consider a good experience after the efforts we put in... :)
http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:S219eozbe3zlhj5...
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Jon Robson jrobson@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would not object to restoring permalink but I worry the list might look rather empty without it.
Topic History is also fine in no-JS. So let's bring back the no-JS topic menu with Permalink and Topic. It sounds like low effort for a small win, so I tweaked the card and moved it to Estimation meeting.
I'd rather we put effort into improving UX. I doubt that would be too much work, but it needs design input and prioritisation.
The kiss of slow for getting things done?
As you say, no-JS Reply (and Edit) are now a good experience. I think they demonstrate a good approach for any developer to revive 'Edit title' and 'Summarize/Edit summary' without much design interaction: show the topic with an edit form in the appropriate place.
That leaves moderation. The Hide/Delete/Suppress dialog works OK as a standalone page, it just needs a better page h1 heading (as do all the action pages) and should show the dialog title ("Hide topic?") as text on the page. Close (soon to be Lock) is more mysterious, it needs some introductory text.
For all of these submit-something interactions, should the redisplayed topic show a green class="successbox" containing "Your <action> was successful." ?
Cheers,