Dear Cary, Sean,

This is a continuation of our correspondence, which started in reply to Sean's hard work in reorg the the Comms Proj page, and continued in Cary's reply on 23/11/2007 titled ComProj Digest, Vol 9, Issue 12. I'm giving this background as no one who might be reading this thread would understand this. Which makes my point. Email might be OK for 1 to 1 communication. It's lousy for anyone trying to get orientated.

The reason forums have proved so popular over the past few years is not (just) that it enables people to communicate. The rule of thumb is for every conversation there are 10 reading and 100 who use a thread for reference to other conversations.

So if Sandy invites people to participate in a blogging initiative and then, as Cary suggests, forgets, an enthusiastic volunteer isn't left feeling they have been ignored. And if the logs for meetings aren't put up, they aren't left feeling that things have come to a full stop. Fourums work because conversations aren't split into monthly 'directories' and separated lists which together discuss things which give people an overview of what's going on, and discussions which overlap, without requiring editors who must answer FAQ's continually, and readers attempting to understand the recategorization merry-go-round.

As Sean (I think) said, "The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will continue to do or if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the group". This is a continuous (Comms Proj) process, in which the Foundation would obviously like to see more people involved, but if they are like me, they will see no place in which to start.

I'm staggered by how much you guys, especially cary, have done with so few people, so please don't take any of this as personal criticism. But as you say Cary, most groups will want their own space, where outsiders must get orientated and learn the lingo before contributing. But if this group can't help them get an overview of the orgs structure then it's pretty obvious why it's not going anywhere.

I have pointed to just one domain's forums, which I have done before, and which you might be aware of, if there was a thread which contained discussion, going back years, about comms tools. It's this one http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/

There's nothing clever about it, It's just seems to be the right tool for the right job. Where a wiki is excellent for building a library of articles and giving them a context (like Wikipedia), this kind of tool is excellent for giving groups a chance to talk through an article's meaning, what it's to be used for, link to & from reflated articles, and leave the memory of a discussion behind. It also enables people to see who's reading a thread, tap them on the shoulder and have a discussion about something at the time it holds their interest (perhaps using VoIP services like Skype).

The other stuff, the real time stuff, like IRC has come an aweful long way since IRC. I'll point you at the big daddy - the accessgrid http://www.accessgrid.org/ - which could be used for (as I've suggested) tying together the Alexandrian Wikimania site with the runners up in different countries. There are many other (smaller) versions of these virtual rooms scattered around, but will require sponsorship. I'll talk to Sue about that. (I was hoping it would be on this thread).

Enough. Xmas is coming, and you don't need an old fart telling you how things could be improved. It needs money to do all these things. I'm putting something together for Sue which works through how NREN's could be encouraged to host the Foundation's projects. I just wanted to stick this post in the sand as I do, so you could edit it mercilessly.

All the best, simonfj

ref; http://web.nmc.org/communication/section/questions/#0

Sean, This is why I'm entirely disorientated,

Off the front page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page I click on Comms Projects Group http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComProj

Where I click on Projects. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communication_Projects_Group/Projects And get nothing.

I think the list of projects was blanked because we are unsure as to which projects are active or not.

I'm sure you want newbies to go here.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Communication_Projects_Group_-_Proje cts

Actually, I don't think we want them to go there, that's the old system that currently just lists all projects we've ever handled. That category system may change at a later date.

And the same can be said for the other links. No?

As far as I know, all of the other links in the Navbar are up-to-date as well.

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On 11/22/07, simonpedia simon@cols.com.au wrote:

Dear Sean,

My thanks for your guidance and patience, and my apologees for taking so long. So far as email allowing 'really clear comms'. If it were 121 yeah

OK.

But we are trying to help idiots like me get ORIENTATED and after doing

so,

be a little useful. After going through the many singular (open) elists, I've gotta say no, it's as clear as mud.

The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will continue to do or if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the group.

I look at Cormac (as one example) helping to orientate people on the uni list

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000247.html

And then ask some real pertinent questions

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000248.html

And then I look though (just) this list where I see Sandy Ordenez ask for some help with a blogging project, send a "yes, I'd love to help", and receive an email to a group, including yourself that talks about another 'internal group'. (" Another Wikipedian - Simon has agreed to help out

with

the edit wikipedia/blogging project. Schiste, when you can give me an update, so I can email to internal/comcom etc.)

That was just a message to Schiste about a few private groups. In an organization as large as ours, you must know that there are some items/groups that won't be open to all.

And then nothing.

About your edit wikipedia/blogging project? If so, you should contact Sandy about that, she probably just forgot.

No doubt there are a thousand emails going on, which might make it clear what's happening. And the IRC meeting take place, without the records being (easily) found, and if they are, are so arcane, a newbie would have a hard time making some sense of them.

...the records are found in the navbar at the top of our ComProj pages, click "Meetings". I do admit that there hasn't been logs from the last few meetings posted (and don't have an explanation for that), but all the other logs are posted in the normal format for IRC chat logs.

Through all of this, I see the Foundation looking to employ more staff in San Fran to do with outreach & partnership development. Meanwhile

christophe

doesn't understand how my mail might even pertain to this list.

Your e-mail might have been hard to figure out.

OK, 'grumpy old man' is a good description. But I see you (and so many tothers) working your butt off, and while a wiki has proved quite

fantastic

in developing an encyclopedia/dictionary that has changed every institution's idea of what the web could be for, it's global communities

are

hindered by using comms tools built for an age gone by.

Come on mate. You don't need to be told this by an old man. I've read too much of what you've (and others) have written to imagine what you could do by using comms tools that were modern. All I'm saying is that if you (and the bright minds around here) can scope them, we can surely find a partner who will sponsor them.

What "comms tools" are old-age? Mailing lists? They've seemed to work fine for all of us and most people seem to agree that they're better than other tools like forums. However, if your "modern comms tools" might be something like teleconferences, I'm sure that Sandy would be happy to hear about that. :-) Though, I'm not sure how others would take it. Instead of just saying that our communication tools are antiquted, can you tell us some alternatives so we can adequately discuss this?

My regards to all, simonfj

and my regards to you.

ComProj has long been a redirect to Communication Projects Group, so that hasn't changed. The projects page is what I changed the most; go take a look.

As for forums etc., I understand where you are coming from, but I also don't see what is wrong with e-mail - surely pretty much everyone on the web knows how to use e-mail, and it allows really clear communication?

Thank you for your contribution,

Sean

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19/11/2007

7:05 PM

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