ComProj December 2007

comproj@lists.wikimedia.org

10 participants
11 discussions

Re: [ComProj] Tonight's meeting
by Erkan Yilmaz 22 Dec '07

22 Dec '07

Logs can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communication_Projects_Group/Meetings ********************************************************************************************** This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte Informationen. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist nicht gestattet. **********************************************************************************************

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Tonight's meeting
by Sean Whitton 22 Dec '07

22 Dec '07

Hello all, There is a meeting tonight at 2030UTC (about one hour forty five minutes away). I have a proposition to throw out before I formally propose it on the mailing list so I would appreciate it if as many as possible could be there. Thanks, Sean On 12/19/07, symode09(a)hotmail.com <symode09(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > I haven't been to a meeting in so long because of exams and other > commitments (I never thought nagging was so effective :p ) what's the status > of the comproj/when's the next meeting > > > thanx > > > Deni > symode09 > brown_cat > > > _______________________________________________ > ComProj mailing list > ComProj(a)lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/comproj >

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more wikizine participation
by Cary Bass 19 Dec '07

19 Dec '07

I'm going to be adding Wikizine participation back to the agenda, as well as ask that we follow up with our Japanese-Wikimedia discussion from before. -- Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia Foundation today: http://donate.wikimedia.org Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. Phone: 727.231.0101 Fax: 727.258.0207 E-Mail: cbass(a)wikimedia.org

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ComProj Meeting 2007-11-28
by Aphaia 17 Dec '07

17 Dec '07

Hi! Lately I found the log on meta and would like to give some feedback :) * Ja translators [3:35pm] cary-office: So we can understand the concerns of the communities [3:35pm] Markie996: slap transcom and their channel? [3:35pm] cary-office: noooo Oh why? <g> While they are now inactive, Japanese translators form a team. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_teams/ja Sadly the ja translation coordinator is now inactive, I miss him greatly. (He is also my co-b'crat on jawikinews since its launching). However you may keep in touch with other people including Takot (Takashi) or other members. And if someone revives the team, I'll be more than happy (however it may be mainly Transcom concern and me as native speaker, not any other people). * Schedule [3:55pm] htchie1: let me check if Alex is online [3:57pm] htchie1: it seems he is sleeping now, since it's 5am in Taipei I think Historybuff may rememer this issue: the current schedule of ComProj meeting is not good for East Asia residents. To get us East Asian residents involved, some new arrangement will be necessary imo. (Note: Htchien is now in US). * Essjay It was also focused on Japanese media and blog. And of course, criticized. Japanese IT media is interested in English Wikipedia: some of them apparently more in it than Japanese sister. (It is no surprise - same happened elsewhere). As a comcom member I've sent press releases to some media people but I haven't seen them use those PR materials directly, if I recall correctly. Rather they love to get AP, Reuters or BBC coverage and then translate those worldwide famous press coverage. It is not only Wikipedia issue but in general Japanese media and academics have criticized themselves "we import everything cultural but seldom expert". I don't mean you began the Sysypos deeds - but just would like you to aware most of Japanese are just uninterested to give their opinions and now you challenge this ethnic tendency. Silence is considered t/here gold and eloquence scrap rather than silver. So have patience :) You began a valuable task. * Alexsh [4:07pm] htchie1: I think maybe Alex is not proper to be the project leader for WMJP case, because the ja community does not trust someone who is not a Japanese easily I agree basically the latter part, but Alex seems to have a good competence in reading (not writing but he has been steadily improving his Japanese skill), and some of jawiki community have showed him trust (cf. jawiki:Request for block/Kagemusha. Some said "even without evidence, I am okay with that - I trust Alexsh who have devoted to coordinate jawiki and zhwiki.). While I don't think he can be the key figure in a long term, if you are looking for someone who is noticeable a part of both global community and part of ja to some extent, I think he may be a good choice - if he nods. -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Mixing Directories and Comms Tools
by simonpedia 17 Dec '07

17 Dec '07

Sean, I’m just watching the need for this become more obvious in a bunch of silos – mainly unis. If you want to look at one attempt to do a global open content thing (for courses) it’s here. HYPERLINK "http://www.ocwconsortium.org/ocwcforum/"http://www.ocwconsortium.org/ocwcfo rum/ You can view their forums, which don’t really work as they aren’t (reasonably) intuitive in getting orientated like sitepoint.com’s (where old threads are drawn to the top of page through new usage). It’s the same for WMF projects. I collect mail for comproj, UK, and meta lists in one folder to view the conversations on a time basis. One really couldn’t say there’s much cross pollination across mail lists, except when someone like Michael makes a point of working through each of them, and replying to it’s vertical progress, often in a place where the linkage is apparent. (thanks Mike, that’s (from what I’m reading into it is) terrific. Wish I could read de, but I get the jist). IRC isn’t used a great deal as timing across time zones is a challenge for all of us (do I need to tell yu), while the idea of using virtual rooms, and leaving them “open” at times is still a bit new (not only for me, but my geriatric peers). I’ll also point to a conversation at wikieducator about this same subject. HYPERLINK "http://wikieducator.org/Talk:Community_building_project"http://wikieducator .org/Talk:Community_building_project The common problem is not so much a lack of info (for volunteers or any others). It’s just that it’s impossible to get orientated, find (or direct) people from various remote groups doing similar things to a place, AT AROUND the same time, and work through how to collaborate. E.g I see your attempts at getting a 2009 UK Wikimania together, as a one off conference, and wonder how many OCWC uni people are sitting in their silos, trying to figure out how Wikipedia’s global framework might link (reference) to their institutional courses, and how Wikimania might link to/complement their annual conferences. BTW. I’ve been beating bushes, HYPERLINK "http://labspace.open.ac.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=231#p641"http://labspace .open.ac.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=231#p641 Wikipedia (and others) work because there’s not a huge amount to learn in using the tool. One can learn by watching and thinking things through. You can get orienated, by language, from the bottom up, through reading one article of interest and just having a go. It needs to be the same with comms tools. Any comms tool. If it’s a meta level then we’re talking about the communications of various (specialist and project) groups. So unless this one is going to try and direct (say) 200 new user :Users/min in 100 languages then I’d suggest we have to make the groups’ conversations a bit more obvious than this. HYPERLINK "http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo"http://lists.wikimedia.org/mail man/listinfo Approachable is the word. If just one email goes missing, as your last did to me, not only am I disoriented but anyone else who (later) can work their way through the horizontally challenged elists will get exhausted trying to get an idea on what might be going on in the wider wiki world, & how the timing of one project (or conference) is supposed to be relevant to (complement) another. So No. No more guides. A forum is just something which picks a bunch of email lists and makes obvious what’s going on across them. Aggregating them means one sign On is sufficient. One user account is a way for a person to keep their threads together across projects and (should something like liquid threads be used), a conversation can find its “logical place” by being moved. There is also some OS tool work going on in Labspace which will enable a user, seeing someone else reading the same thread, with their green messenger (MSG) light on, to click, chat or conference with peers. Enough. It’s the night before Christmas. If you view that Labspace Wikipedia thread and see the icon I used, it’s a (The Far Side) Larsen. Father Christmas has stepped on a mouse while delivering presents. Now you know why nothing stirred, “not even a mouse”. I don’t want to be guilty of the same thing. Have a good one. simon Simon, Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that participation in Wikimedia still has a reasonably steep learning curve, and this is not a good thing. However, we already have a large contributor base centered around the means of communication we already use, that is mailing lists and IRC channels, and thus I think that if we were to introduce a board as you suggest it would split things and it would not end up being used. What would you say to better volunteer information? This is something Sandy has been working on. A guide for Wikimeda volunteers in general, regardless of project, is something that I think ComProj could work on. Sean Perhaps some stimulations for you, what could be done... My interest is promoting the (German) Wikiversity... Some of the materials and ideas could be taken over by other projects, I hope. HYPERLINK "http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communication_Projects_Group/Membership "http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communication_Projects_Group/Membership No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 15/12/2007 12:00 PM

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Regrets for tonight's meeting
by Sean Whitton 12 Dec '07

12 Dec '07

Hello all, In the past forty-eight hours I have had a debating competition thrust upon me! Thus I will not be able to attend the meeting tonight as I am going to be putting a lot of effort into preparing for this competition. I hope this is not too much of a problem as we don't have any pressing project issues. Thanks, Sean

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Wikiversity
by Michael Reschke 12 Dec '07

12 Dec '07

Perhaps some stimulations for you, what could be done... My interest is promoting the (German) Wikiversity... Some of the materials and ideas could be taken over by other projects, I hope. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communication_Projects_Group/Membership Yours Michael from Germany

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Mixing Directories and Comms Tools
by simonpedia 06 Dec '07

06 Dec '07

Platonides HYPERLINK "mailto:comproj%40lists.wikimedia.org?Subject=%5BComProj%5D%20Mixing%20Direc tories%20and%20Comms%20Tools&In-Reply-To=6g89nt%242dtngn%40smtp05.syd.iprimu s.net.au"platonides at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 19:17:17 UTC 2007 There mail readers allowing conversation threading (which has the little problem that you need to have received the emails). There's also gmane, providing a news interface for email lists. Your news client *will* support threading. And as the mails are stored on the servers, you can access to threads no matter how old. Alas, this list is not in gmane (other wiki*edia lists are) but it could be added. Consider if that fills your expectative. Thanks. It’s like everything these days. So much choice. I hate emails die to the spam it creates, and am used to threads that aren’t cut into months or into separate lists. I guess people get used to anything. I’ve just seen forum work to include newbies and help them get orientated, esp good for a place like Wikipedia where lots goes on (across threads). > The other stuff, the real time stuff, like IRC has come an aweful long way > since IRC. I'll point you at the big daddy - the accessgrid > HYPERLINK "http://www.accessgrid.org/"http://www.accessgrid.org/ - which could be used for (as I've suggested) > tying together the Alexandrian Wikimania site with the runners up in > different countries. At least it's easy to find out how to entern on an irc channel (you know there're web gateways you could use, do you?). Arriving to that page i don't see what i'm supposed to find nor how to get to it. No, didn’t know there was a Web gateway to the IRC. Did I miss something here? HYPERLINK "http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComProj"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComPr oj The accessgrid is primarily for larger groups. I suggested it as it’s at the fat end of the IRC skinny. Operator intensive, but I’m trying to get some unis to buy into tying some sites together for Wikimania. Maybe this would be more relevant. HYPERLINK "http://forums.mebeam.com/view_topic.php?id=2&forum_id=2"http://forums.mebea m.com/view_topic.php?id=2&forum_id=2 I’m sure they’d be happy to partner with Wikipedians. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date: 5/12/2007 8:41 AM

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Meeting in ~20mins
by Sean Whitton 06 Dec '07

06 Dec '07

I may be a few minutes late; apologies. Sean

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Mixing Directories and Comms Tools
by simonpedia 06 Dec '07

06 Dec '07

Dear Cary, Sean, This is a continuation of our correspondence, which started in reply to Sean's hard work in reorg the the Comms Proj page, and continued in Cary's reply on 23/11/2007 titled ComProj Digest, Vol 9, Issue 12. I'm giving this background as no one who might be reading this thread would understand this. Which makes my point. Email might be OK for 1 to 1 communication. It's lousy for anyone trying to get orientated. The reason forums have proved so popular over the past few years is not (just) that it enables people to communicate. The rule of thumb is for every conversation there are 10 reading and 100 who use a thread for reference to other conversations. So if Sandy invites people to participate in a blogging initiative and then, as Cary suggests, forgets, an enthusiastic volunteer isn't left feeling they have been ignored. And if the logs for meetings aren't put up, they aren't left feeling that things have come to a full stop. Fourums work because conversations aren't split into monthly 'directories' and separated lists which together discuss things which give people an overview of what's going on, and discussions which overlap, without requiring editors who must answer FAQ's continually, and readers attempting to understand the recategorization merry-go-round. As Sean (I think) said, "The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will continue to do or if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the group". This is a continuous (Comms Proj) process, in which the Foundation would obviously like to see more people involved, but if they are like me, they will see no place in which to start. I'm staggered by how much you guys, especially cary, have done with so few people, so please don't take any of this as personal criticism. But as you say Cary, most groups will want their own space, where outsiders must get orientated and learn the lingo before contributing. But if this group can't help them get an overview of the orgs structure then it's pretty obvious why it's not going anywhere. I have pointed to just one domain's forums, which I have done before, and which you might be aware of, if there was a thread which contained discussion, going back years, about comms tools. It's this one http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/ There's nothing clever about it, It's just seems to be the right tool for the right job. Where a wiki is excellent for building a library of articles and giving them a context (like Wikipedia), this kind of tool is excellent for giving groups a chance to talk through an article's meaning, what it's to be used for, link to & from reflated articles, and leave the memory of a discussion behind. It also enables people to see who's reading a thread, tap them on the shoulder and have a discussion about something at the time it holds their interest (perhaps using VoIP services like Skype). The other stuff, the real time stuff, like IRC has come an aweful long way since IRC. I'll point you at the big daddy - the accessgrid http://www.accessgrid.org/ - which could be used for (as I've suggested) tying together the Alexandrian Wikimania site with the runners up in different countries. There are many other (smaller) versions of these virtual rooms scattered around, but will require sponsorship. I'll talk to Sue about that. (I was hoping it would be on this thread). Enough. Xmas is coming, and you don't need an old fart telling you how things could be improved. It needs money to do all these things. I'm putting something together for Sue which works through how NREN's could be encouraged to host the Foundation's projects. I just wanted to stick this post in the sand as I do, so you could edit it mercilessly. All the best, simonfj ref; http://web.nmc.org/communication/section/questions/#0 > Sean, > This is why I'm entirely disorientated, > > Off the front page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page > I click on Comms Projects Group http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComProj > > Where I click on Projects. > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communication_Projects_Group/Projects > And get nothing. I think the list of projects was blanked because we are unsure as to which projects are active or not. > I'm sure you want newbies to go here. > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Communication_Projects_Group_-_Proje cts Actually, I don't think we want them to go there, that's the old system that currently just lists all projects we've ever handled. That category system may change at a later date. > And the same can be said for the other links. No? As far as I know, all of the other links in the Navbar are up-to-date as well. ------------------------------ On 11/22/07, simonpedia <simon(a)cols.com.au> wrote: > Dear Sean, > > My thanks for your guidance and patience, and my apologees for taking so > long. So far as email allowing 'really clear comms'. If it were 121 yeah OK. > But we are trying to help idiots like me get ORIENTATED and after doing so, > be a little useful. After going through the many singular (open) elists, > I've gotta say no, it's as clear as mud. The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will continue to do or if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the group. > I look at Cormac (as one example) helping to orientate people on the uni > list > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000247.html > And then ask some real pertinent questions > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000248.html > > And then I look though (just) this list where I see Sandy Ordenez ask for > some help with a blogging project, send a "yes, I'd love to help", and > receive an email to a group, including yourself that talks about another > 'internal group'. (" Another Wikipedian - Simon has agreed to help out with > the edit wikipedia/blogging project. Schiste, when you can give me an > update, so I can email to internal/comcom etc.) That was just a message to Schiste about a few private groups. In an organization as large as ours, you must know that there are some items/groups that won't be open to all. > And then nothing. About your edit wikipedia/blogging project? If so, you should contact Sandy about that, she probably just forgot. > No doubt > there are a thousand emails going on, which might make it clear what's > happening. And the IRC meeting take place, without the records being > (easily) found, and if they are, are so arcane, a newbie would have a hard > time making some sense of them. ...the records are found in the navbar at the top of our ComProj pages, click "Meetings". I do admit that there hasn't been logs from the last few meetings posted (and don't have an explanation for that), but all the other logs are posted in the normal format for IRC chat logs. > Through all of this, I see the Foundation looking to employ more staff in > San Fran to do with outreach & partnership development. Meanwhile christophe > doesn't understand how my mail might even pertain to this list. Your e-mail might have been hard to figure out. > OK, 'grumpy old man' is a good description. But I see you (and so many > tothers) working your butt off, and while a wiki has proved quite fantastic > in developing an encyclopedia/dictionary that has changed every > institution's idea of what the web could be for, it's global communities are > hindered by using comms tools built for an age gone by. > > Come on mate. You don't need to be told this by an old man. I've read too > much of what you've (and others) have written to imagine what you could do > by using comms tools that were modern. All I'm saying is that if you (and > the bright minds around here) can scope them, we can surely find a partner > who will sponsor them. What "comms tools" are old-age? Mailing lists? They've seemed to work fine for all of us and most people seem to agree that they're better than other tools like forums. However, if your "modern comms tools" might be something like teleconferences, I'm sure that Sandy would be happy to hear about that. :-) Though, I'm not sure how others would take it. Instead of just saying that our communication tools are antiquted, can you tell us some alternatives so we can adequately discuss this? > My regards to all, > simonfj and my regards to you. > > > > ComProj has long been a redirect to Communication Projects Group, so > that hasn't changed. The projects page is what I changed the most; go > take a look. > > As for forums etc., I understand where you are coming from, but I also > don't see what is wrong with e-mail - surely pretty much everyone on > the web knows how to use e-mail, and it allows really clear > communication? > > Thank you for your contribution, > > Sean > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1140 - Release Date: 19/11/2007 > 7:05 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ > ComProj mailing list > ComProj(a)lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/comproj > -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 --- Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to this address will probably get lost. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ComProj mailing list ComProj(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/comproj End of ComProj Digest, Vol 9, Issue 12 ************************************** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.7/1152 - Release Date: 26/11/2007 10:50 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1170 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 10:52 AM

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ComProj December 2007