On 4 February 2010 17:38, Daniel Schwen lists@schwen.de wrote:
But we need the functionality there first, so we can *then* flatten.
Ahh, the good old chicken and egg ;-) I don't let that count. We have plenty of working category intersection tools already.
Yes, but they're not part of the interface.
The technology needs to work with the data - the six million files and their categories, carefully added by hand by humans.
If category intersections worked, they could then be broken down to work better with category intersections.
Demanding that all six million files be de-categorised before you'll even allow a category intersection tool to *possibly* be deployed is backward.
People need to be able to go gradually.
- d.
Yes, but they're not part of the interface.
So what?! The first step has been made on the technical side. _No_ step has been made at all on the categorization side.
The technology needs to work with the data - the six million files and their categories, carefully added by hand by humans.
The technology works in principle. But it can never work fully satisfactory with the current categorization scheme.
If category intersections worked,
They do.
Demanding that all six million files be de-categorised before you'll even allow a category intersection tool to *possibly* be deployed is backward.
I never demanded that. Geez. What I want is the commons community pledges support for a change of the categorization system. Putting intersection in the interface before they do is a _waste of time_. I'm asking for them to show the _tiniest_ sign of support. The programmers have already bent over backwards (including me with my own intersection tool)
Of course recategorisation will take time, and so will the deployment of a production quality intersection interface. Stop pretending that either side has to finish all their work first and show a polished end result! That will never work and just stall developments.
On 4 February 2010 17:44, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 4 February 2010 17:38, Daniel Schwen lists@schwen.de wrote:
But we need the functionality there first, so we can *then* flatten.
Ahh, the good old chicken and egg ;-) I don't let that count. We have plenty of working category intersection tools already.
Yes, but they're not part of the interface.
The technology needs to work with the data - the six million files and their categories, carefully added by hand by humans.
If category intersections worked, they could then be broken down to work better with category intersections.
Demanding that all six million files be de-categorised before you'll even allow a category intersection tool to *possibly* be deployed is backward.
People need to be able to go gradually.
- d.
Can be got around by calling the new system tagging and running it separate from the existing category system.
People need to be able to go gradually.
Yeah, tried that before. See [1] (Template:Tag). But that would be quite the kludge. There are plenty of ways to change the category system. What should come first is either a dicatorial decree or - if it must - a vote/!vote for switching systems.
If that is decided a bot could easily be run to write a flattened category list onto every category page. That list would have to be manually reviewed for goofs like Aryeh pointed out. Furthermore we'd have to blacklist every category that does not describe a singular concept. Can be done using templates that are manually set and read out by bots.
(abbreviated) example: Category:Churches in Guernsey
would get a template on its category page with all the categories that occur somewhere above "Category:Churches in Guernsey" in the tree: Category:Churches in Normandy Category:Religious_buildings_in_Guernsey Category:Religious buildings in Normandy Category:Buildings in Guernsey Category:Guernsey Category:Religion in Guernsey Category:Buildings in Normandy Category:Architecture of Normandy Category:Normandy Category:Architecture of Europe Category:Provinces of France Category:Provinces Category:History of France Category:History Category:History of Europe by country Category:France ...
A ginormous list. However every blacklisted category could already be filtered out! Leaving us with Category:Guernsey Category:Normandy Category:Provinces Category:History Category:France ...
Well Category:Churches better be in there somewhere ;-). Anyhow that list will be much shorter now, and users can weed out nonsense categories like the abstract Category:History and Category:Provinces quickly. A bot could then recategorize all images in the reviewed category.
[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=T...
<pedant> I know this is just an example but ... ----- "Daniel Schwen" lists@schwen.de wrote:
(abbreviated) example: Category:Churches in Guernsey A ginormous list. However every blacklisted category could already be filtered out! Leaving us with Category:Guernsey Category:Normandy Category:Provinces Category:History Category:France
Is it just me who notes that Guernsey is one of the *UK* Channel Islands, and not part of France ... </pedant>
Alison
Is it just me who notes that Guernsey is one of the *UK* Channel Islands, and not part of France ...
</pedant>
That.. ..uhm... ...*sweat*...
...that was EXACTLY my point! ;-) The commons categorization system is screwed up :-P
On 4 February 2010 19:49, Daniel Schwen lists@schwen.de wrote:
Is it just me who notes that Guernsey is one of the *UK* Channel Islands, and not part of France ...
</pedant>
That.. ..uhm... ...*sweat*...
...that was EXACTLY my point! ;-) The commons categorization system is screwed up :-P
Not really. The islands belonged to Normandy and still belong to the Duchy of Normandy. They are not part of the UK. Normandy however is now part of France.
On 4 February 2010 20:12, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
Not really. The islands belonged to Normandy and still belong to the Duchy of Normandy. They are not part of the UK. Normandy however is now part of France.
They are indeed not part of the UK. They just, er, share in the phone, monetary and postal systems ... to some degree ...
- d.