Last week I met with John Killy, the COO of the Mozilla Corporation, and with Brewster Kahle, ED of the Internet Archive. Mozilla intends to support video playback in Firefox using the new <video> tag [1], but such support is not likely to arrive before late 2008 according to John.
The Internet Archive currently does not transcode to Ogg Theora, but has a transcoding pipeline in place for other codecs. They have recently started embedding the Flash-based open source "Flow Player" for playing back FLV files directly in the browser, and have added FLV to their transcoding pipeline.
The Archive is happy to support us with video hosting in any way. If we can find a useful hosting arrangement with them, they would also be willing to add Ogg Theora to their transcoding pipeline.
Imagine that we could easily embed any currently hosted video from the Internet Archive into Wikimedia projects, but also make use of their immense hosting capacity for future video uploads beyond the current 20 MB upload size limit.
Video has tremendous potential educational use, and we should not let the Wikimedia projects fall behind when it comes to hosting video content. One should not underestimate the big role that ease of use played in the success of YouTube: thanks to embedded Flash video, users no longer had to worry about some plugin possibly hosing their Windows installation, or about Real Networks' eternal "Buffering ..." message showing up. It just worked [tm].
We must achieve the same ease of use in Wikimedia projects. In my opinion, inconveniencing users is the worst possible way to raise awareness of free content & free software. I therefore propose that 1) we immediately begin serious discussions with the Internet Archive about hosting some or all of our video content on their servers; 2) All uploaded videos should be transcoded to at least Ogg Theora & a Flash-compatible codec. 3) we add video support to MediaWiki that will, as intelligently as possible, fall back to any of the following methods - embedded open source Flash player - Java player - VLC plugin - (in the future) <video> support. 4) We support the open source Flash project Gnash to ensure that it can be used for video playback on Wikimedia servers.
Having an open source Flash implementation & an open source Flash player does not address the patent issues with Flash video, but those who are concerned about violating software patents (which are not universally applicable anyway) could still use the provided Theora files. We could also add a clear message to this effect at the bottom of every embedded Flash video.
Such a solution would be a reasonable compromise between trying to provide "free as in speech" video wherever possible, but also minimizing hassle and maximizing ease of use for typical Windows users looking for free educational content. We should continue to evangelize & use Ogg Theora, but not at the expense of usability.
[1] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.ht...
On 7/19/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Last week I met with John Killy, the COO of the Mozilla Corporation, and with Brewster Kahle, ED of the Internet Archive. Mozilla intends to support video playback in Firefox using the new <video> tag [1], but such support is not likely to arrive before late 2008 according to John.
Thats nice that you met with Mozilla, it is a shame you didn't advise anyone in advance ... I could have given you some good talking points.
The Archive is happy to support us with video hosting in any way. If we can find a useful hosting arrangement with them, they would also be willing to add Ogg Theora to their transcoding pipeline.
Just like last time this was brought up I fail to see why we need to introduce a dependency on an outside organization.
By doing so we lose the ability to offer a complete record of our content, and and the ability to offer easy 'one stop' duplication of our collection for backup and other purposes.
Right now Wikimedia's sites standalone. You can reasonably make an offline copy. That falls apart if we start directly including our video content from another site.
It's especially problematic when you talk about moving our hosting to a site which has a copyright policy which is substantially incompatible with ours.
A lot of the content that Archive.org hosts would be deleted on commons for copyright reasons. Historically they have handled copyright by exception rather than proactively.
Video has tremendous potential educational use, and we should not let the Wikimedia projects fall behind when it comes to hosting video content.
Yet some members of our development staff do not respond to emails about video playback support in Mediawiki.
If it is important, why isn't there interest in this outside of the occasional "we should move video to Archive.org" or "we should have flash" discussions?
One should not underestimate the big role that ease of use played in the success of YouTube: thanks to embedded Flash video, users no longer had to worry about some plugin possibly hosing their Windows installation, or about Real Networks' eternal "Buffering ..." message showing up. It just worked [tm].
This is not at all unique to flash... of course. :)
We must achieve the same ease of use in Wikimedia projects. In my opinion, inconveniencing users is the worst possible way to raise awareness of free content & free software.
We are not "inconveniencing users" to promote free software and formats anymore.
Where have you been? :) We now have automatic in browser playback that works for a majority of readers without downloading anything additional.
It's not perfect, but the compatibility is there. If I wasn't ignored on this subject it would be further along by now.
- All uploaded videos should be transcoded to at least Ogg Theora & a
Flash-compatible codec
"Flash-compatible" means patent encumbered and thats not a fact in dispute.
- we add video support to MediaWiki that will, as intelligently as
possible, fall back to any of the following methods
- embedded open source Flash player
- Java player
- VLC plugin
- (in the future) <video> support.
Jeez Erik. With the exception of flash we already have that. *Including* HTML5 <video/> support, which works in Opera. In addition to those we also support Application/Ogg which works for most modern Linux distros out of the box (via totem or mplayer plugin).
Flash isn't included in our current solution because it's not possible to play back non-patent encumbered audio or video formats in Flash 8. (Flash 8 uses MP3 for audio, and your choice of two encumbered video codecs) In theory support for free formats is possible in Flash 9, but it hasn't been coded yet and few are running Flash 9.
- We support the open source Flash project Gnash to ensure that it
can be used for video playback on Wikimedia servers.
Why would we provide support to groups producing players of encumbered formats (open as they are) when we have not provided a single shred of direct support to organizations which produce non-encumbered formats and media tools?
Having an open source Flash implementation & an open source Flash player does not address the patent issues with Flash video, but those who are concerned about violating software patents (which are not universally applicable anyway)
Indeed, only applicable in the US for the most part.
Wikimedia is in the US. How do you propose we pay the licensing fees for the codec patents we are using, should we be presented with a bill?
could still use the provided Theora files. We could also add a clear message to this effect at the bottom of every embedded Flash video.
The existence of non-encumbered formats is *pointless* when the formats are relegated to mere alternatives.
If someone doesn't step forward and push for unencoumbered formats you never escape the chicken and egg problem with their support. We stepped forward and suffered for a long time. Now that it pretty much JustWorks(tm), you want to regress? Feh!
The reality is that the licensors of proprietary codecs are not stupid, they utilize tactics such as only sending bills to the most lucrative targets who are already established and committed to their codecs, and they adjust their rates per work/per download pricing so that it is just slightly less expensive than the cost of driving a switch to free formats on your own. There is also data that suggests that they negotiate anti-competitive deals in which licensees agree to exclude support for free formats in exchange for improves fees for the proprietary codecs.
Through these methods they are able to maintain their initial head-start and continue to change what is effectively a tax on all profitable media shipped around on the internet.
This tax is a terrible and unreasonable burden on the freedom of artists, content creators as well as consumers. Especially ones who aren't interested in charging their users a dollar per work.
Helping to prolong this state of affairs by supporting the formats it depends on is a direct affront to the Foundation's mission.
People are not free if they must pay a tax in order to distribute knoweldge to more than a handful of freedom k00ks like myself. Free formats solve the problem completely, but only if there is a force helping to maintain mainstream adoption.
Offering free formats as an alternative might allow us to argue that the blood is off our hands, ... but it is a failure to do our part, especially considering how far I'd come.
Such a solution would be a reasonable compromise between trying to provide "free as in speech" video wherever possible, but also minimizing hassle and maximizing ease of use for typical Windows users looking for free educational content. We should continue to evangelize & use Ogg Theora, but not at the expense of usability.
We already have a solution that works for a lot of Windows users without installing anything most don't already have. (Flash isn't installed by default in Windows either.. but most have it. Java penetration isn't quite as deep, but for our readers it does remarkably well)
I think it's insulting that you're pushing flash yet again without even bothering to ask how many readers have flash support yet can't use our existing playback solution, and without being aware of what we already support.
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
By doing so we lose the ability to offer a complete record of our content, and and the ability to offer easy 'one stop' duplication of our collection for backup and other purposes.
http://download.wikimedia.org/
Image tarballs There are currently no image dumps available. Check back in mid-2007.
We don't seem to be doing very well on this front one way or another. The Internet Archive _specializes_ on redundant, fail-safe archiving. I'm sure providing easy ways to access all uploaded videos would be much easier for them than it is for us.
A lot of the content that Archive.org hosts would be deleted on commons for copyright reasons. Historically they have handled copyright by exception rather than proactively.
It's an _archive_. Their point is to slurp up as much material as possible. It's wonderful that an organization with this purpose exists which is willing to push the limits of what is permissible under copyright law, and if we only push free content to them, rather than adopting their criteria for inclusion, their mission in no way denigrates ours. We could selectively whitelist some of their collections as being acceptable for use within our projects.
Yet some members of our development staff do not respond to emails about video playback support in Mediawiki.
By "some members of our development staff", do you mean Tim or Brion? ;-) Let's face it, we don't currently have the staff support to go much beyond just keeping the sites running. As Board member I will certainly continue to push for this to change ASAP.
Where have you been? :) We now have automatic in browser playback that works for a majority of readers without downloading anything additional.
We still don't support embedding video directly into articles (the Archive has a nice implementation where the player loads in the brower once you click the preview). What are you basing the assertion "majority of readers" on?
Jeez Erik. With the exception of flash we already have that. *Including* HTML5 <video/> support, which works in Opera.
It does? I'm using Opera 9.2, and it only shows me the Java player. Which does work, though it initially showed me a tiny version of the video (and the full video on reload). My experience with Java applets has generally been very negative, with memory usage and initialization time often being prohibitively high, and debugging for different platforms being very difficult.
We should carefully look at the experience of the vast majority of users who are a) on Windows, b) use Internet Explorer or the default install of Firefox. I would also bet that most of them don't have Java installed, but it seems hard to get numbers on that. Being able to play video directly in the article being viewed is also highly desirable.
Wikimedia is in the US. How do you propose we pay the licensing fees for the codec patents we are using, should we be presented with a bill?
I think we should simply ask the current patent holders whether they would grant us non-commercial rights to use the relevant codecs. Yes, such rights won't trickle down to third parties, but we would offer the Theora files and promote Theora for this reason. The right could be time-limited, and renegotiated regularly.
If they say "No" or "Yes, but ..", we would have a very good reason to reject those codecs. One can never be completely safe from a patent lawsuit, of course, but that applies to any codec, whether it is ostensibly unencumbered or not.
If someone doesn't step forward and push for unencoumbered formats
I'm 100% in support of "pushing unencumbered formats", but not at the expense of usability for the majority of users.
We already have a solution that works for a lot of Windows users without installing anything most don't already have. (Flash isn't installed by default in Windows either.. but most have it. Java penetration isn't quite as deep, but for our readers it does remarkably well)
I'd love to see hard data on this. Failing any already existing data, a large scale video survey on our projects could be a good first step.
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
We should carefully look at the experience of the vast majority of users who are a) on Windows, b) use Internet Explorer or the default install of Firefox. I would also bet that most of them don't have Java installed, but it seems hard to get numbers on that. Being able to play video directly in the article being viewed is also highly desirable.
Uh, using as much "fair use" images is highly desirable. Even for living people where we could get free replacements... since it's easier, and it will immediately improve the experience of our users.
The point is, using flash video akin to using mp3 for sound (since it actually uses mp3 for audio). So, before pushing for flash, push for mp3 first.
I think we should simply ask the current patent holders whether they would grant us non-commercial rights to use the relevant codecs. Yes, such rights won't trickle down to third parties, but we would offer the Theora files and promote Theora for this reason. The right could be time-limited, and renegotiated regularly.
.. wasn't "freedom to reuse" part of what "free" on "free encyclopedia" meant? Wasn't that the reason we don't use media ***with permission for wikipedia only***ç (since we can't pass the right to reusers) ?
I'm 100% in support of "pushing unencumbered formats", but not at the expense of usability for the majority of users.
So, again, first push for mp3 then, it's more usable for default windows users (since media player won't play ogg without downloading the codec, and we want windows users to have the best experience)
-- Drini
On 7/20/07, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
Uh, using as much "fair use" images is highly desirable. Even for living people where we could get free replacements... since it's easier, and it will immediately improve the experience of our users.
It's a balance between attitudes such as yours and those of people on the opposite end who wish for us to only have free content & free codecs. We should steer clear from dogma and ask ourselves: How do we best meet our goals of building a freely usable encyclopedia?
The use of "phantom images" which encourage upload of freely licensed photographs of celebrities anecdotally seems to have encouraged the creation of free content that would otherwise not have been produced (I'd love to see hard numbers on that). But what do we truly gain if a user who has no experience installing software (or no permission to do so on their system) simply cannot play video or audio on our websites? Arguably, very little: Their motivation to understand the issue of patents in video codecs is unlikely to be positively affected by their inability to play videos on Wiki[mp]edia.
The point is, using flash video akin to using mp3 for sound (since it actually uses mp3 for audio). So, before pushing for flash, push for mp3 first.
In both cases, if we can get a non-aggression agreement from the known patent holders I'd be in favor of transparent transcoding of uploaded files to multiple codecs.
On 7/20/07, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
We should carefully look at the experience of the vast majority of users who are a) on Windows, b) use Internet Explorer or the default install of Firefox. I would also bet that most of them don't have Java installed, but it seems hard to get numbers on that. Being able to play video directly in the article being viewed is also highly desirable.
Uh, using as much "fair use" images is highly desirable. Even for living people where we could get free replacements... since it's easier, and it will immediately improve the experience of our users.
The point is, using flash video akin to using mp3 for sound (since it actually uses mp3 for audio). So, before pushing for flash, push for mp3 first.
I think we should simply ask the current patent holders whether they would grant us non-commercial rights to use the relevant codecs. Yes, such rights won't trickle down to third parties, but we would offer the Theora files and promote Theora for this reason. The right could be time-limited, and renegotiated regularly.
.. wasn't "freedom to reuse" part of what "free" on "free encyclopedia" meant? Wasn't that the reason we don't use media ***with permission for wikipedia only***ç (since we can't pass the right to reusers) ?
I'm 100% in support of "pushing unencumbered formats", but not at the expense of usability for the majority of users.
So, again, first push for mp3 then, it's more usable for default windows users (since media player won't play ogg without downloading the codec, and we want windows users to have the best experience)
I agree with the point of this post.
I don't think we ought to be supporting a patent-encumbered format for which there are no free tools for creating and editing.
We've been making a lot of progess in making the videos in free formats on wikimedia accessible to Joe and Jane Average User, to the point where it is no more difficult to simply play than flash (and I tried this out today, on a public Windows computer which had neither Java nor Flash installed to begin with).
Because of this, I do not see why we need to compromise on this issue.
-Kat
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
By doing so we lose the ability to offer a complete record of our content, and and the ability to offer easy 'one stop' duplication of our collection for backup and other purposes.
http://download.wikimedia.org/
Image tarballs There are currently no image dumps available. Check back in mid-2007.
Yes indeed. In fact I understand that our own internal backup situation for images isn't much better than the dumps...
But by your argument we should shut down enwiki and hand it off to archive.org: After all, our dumps are highly unreliable: there is a new partial set one from the 16th, but before then and for some time back there was no dump at all.
We don't seem to be doing very well on this front one way or another. The Internet Archive _specializes_ on redundant, fail-safe archiving. I'm sure providing easy ways to access all uploaded videos would be much easier for them than it is for us.
We need redundant fail safe storage etc for our images as well. We're failing. The solution is to stop failing, not hand over the ropes to someone else.
A lot of the content that Archive.org hosts would be deleted on commons for copyright reasons. Historically they have handled copyright by exception rather than proactively.
It's an _archive_. Their point is to slurp up as much material as possible. It's wonderful that an organization with this purpose exists which is willing to push the limits of what is permissible under copyright law, and if we only push free content to them, rather than adopting their criteria for inclusion, their mission in no way denigrates ours. We could selectively whitelist some of their collections as being acceptable for use within our projects.
What they do is their business and I wish them luck. At the same time, we're here to create content which provides freedom, not get into pissing matches with copyright holders.
Yet some members of our development staff do not respond to emails about video playback support in Mediawiki.
By "some members of our development staff", do you mean Tim or Brion? ;-) Let's face it, we don't currently have the staff support to go much beyond just keeping the sites running.
Tim.
Where have you been? :) We now have automatic in browser playback that works for a majority of readers without downloading anything additional.
We still don't support embedding video directly into articles (the Archive has a nice implementation where the player loads in the brower once you click the preview).
We could have in about 15 minutes- 20 minutes, I'm not kidding. I'm not a fan of inline players because they mess up layout. No one has asked me for it so I've avoided doing it.
What are you basing the assertion "majority of readers" on?
Our popup "(>) play in browser" system loads a launch page off a box with an access log. Due to java security it also fetches the video through a proxy on the same system. We can tell if the player worked for an IP if the same IP both fetches the launch page and completes a media file.
Previously it worked for 81-82% of the people who clicked the play button. I pulled yesterdays numbers and it was only 72%. Both are still clearly a majority. :) This is in the same general range as flash penetration, at least for flash 8+... and it's way better than before I setup the player: about 0% could just click a theora file and play it ;)
I made some changes to the player autodectection code a few weeks ago, so I suspect I botched detection for some users, resulting in the decline rather than an actual change in browser abilities. If thats the case it's entirely my fault: I put out the last set of detection changes without much testing. :(
Obviously the viewer numbers are a bit self-selecting: If it didn't work before people are less likely to try it later. But even on day one I had success levels well over 50% and it works for a lot more people now. Also, much of our traffic is drive by, which should reduce the memory effect.
Jeez Erik. With the exception of flash we already have that. *Including* HTML5 <video/> support, which works in Opera.
It does? I'm using Opera 9.2, and it only shows me the Java player.
You need the 9.5 beta, which I think is still windows only. It works fine in Wine however.
Which does work, though it initially showed me a tiny version of the video (and the full video on reload). My experience with Java applets has generally been very negative, with memory usage and initialization time often being prohibitively high, and debugging for different platforms being very difficult.
Java is strongly disliked in most of the Linux using crowd, the overwhelming majority of Linux users don't have it installed. For them the VLC, and Application/Ogg support should take up the slack. (Both are preferred by the player over Java if they appear to be available)
I am not a Java fan. If you know some java fans, please send them to me so I can pawn off any Java coding that I need. That said, it's a norm in the Windows using world, especially for folks more on the bussiness apps and academics than the web games side of the browsing spectrum.
We should carefully look at the experience of the vast majority of users who are a) on Windows, b) use Internet Explorer or the default install of Firefox. I would also bet that most of them don't have Java installed, but it seems hard to get numbers on that. Being able to play video directly in the article being viewed is also highly desirable.
Most of the people who hit play have Java. 84% of the plays come from Windows users. 72% are not using Firefox.
We can have exact numbers for Java support for anyone who hits 'play', but I don't have them now because of caching and Java being the least preferred. At the very minimum it is over 50% (since half the IPs are loading the JAR for the player).
Right now I believe the player still tends to work better for joe-average Windows user than joe average techno-dork, but thats only an educated guess.
It needs to improve, but to claim that we're causing a huge hassle for the sake of supporting free formats really isn't supported by what I'm seeing.
Wikimedia is in the US. How do you propose we pay the licensing fees for the codec patents we are using, should we be presented with a bill?
I think we should simply ask the current patent holders whether they would grant us non-commercial rights to use the relevant codecs. Yes, such rights won't trickle down to third parties, but we would offer the Theora files and promote Theora for this reason. The right could be time-limited, and renegotiated regularly.
So will we also be asking for a free copy of MS [[SharePoint]] so we finally have WYSIWYG editing by allowing people to edit pages in Microsoft .doc format? :) Not a serious question of course, but one should ask where the line is with your suggested thinking.
I don't think we should distribute our content using any licenses or technology which we can't make available to others. Thats been our legacy, and there are strong arguments for it.
Doing so is a violation of the spirit of any copyleft license, since you've encumbered a copy of the work, if not the actual terms. I know you're not a fan of copyleft, but it is what it is.
If someone doesn't step forward and push for unencoumbered formats
I'm 100% in support of "pushing unencumbered formats", but not at the expense of usability for the majority of users.
Majority? If thats the criteria then we already passed it when I created the in browser player.
I'd like to see it work better and for more people... and there is a lot of development still going on. (For example, I will very soon have the Java mode displaying video at the right sizes).
I don't personally agree that there is any percentage of users who can't view it that makes it okay to compromise freedom: If people can't view it we should spend effort making it work without the compromise, making the world a place where people can freely share knowledge without format taxes.
...As it turns out, however, what we have is working for a lot of people. So thats an argument we shouldn't have to have.
We already have a solution that works for a lot of Windows users without installing anything most don't already have. (Flash isn't installed by default in Windows either.. but most have it. Java penetration isn't quite as deep, but for our readers it does remarkably well)
I'd love to see hard data on this. Failing any already existing data, a large scale video survey on our projects could be a good first step.
All you had to do was ask... :) I don't have more than two days of logs for the bounce page loads, but I do have them going back to March for successful media plays.
Yesterday 24313 out of 33907 distinct IPs that pressed the play button completed playing a media file with the in-browser player. (this traffic level is historically low but there is a lot of day to day variance)
Since march 1,519,989 distinct IPs have successfully played a media file with the in browser player I operate. The total number of files played in that span is 4,103,018. (I can't say attempts over that span, alas, due to a lack of logs).
Is there room for improvement? Hell yes. But thus far I've been going at this alone.
Do we need to compromise freedom to improve things? No.
Do we need to compromise freedom to support lots of people? We already do without any compromise in freedom.
Cheers.
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
We need redundant fail safe storage etc for our images as well. We're failing. The solution is to stop failing, not hand over the ropes to someone else.
Since we aren't currently doing any large scale video hosting, we wouldn't be handing over anything.
The space we're operating in is large, and there are friends willing to help us. These include Internet Archive, Creative Commons, Mozilla, and others. Of course they don't agree with everything we do and vice versa. That doesn't mean that we should be taking an isolationist stance: we should work together when it makes sense.
What is your worst case scenario?
Our popup "(>) play in browser" system loads a launch page off a box with an access log. Due to java security it also fetches the video through a proxy on the same system. We can tell if the player worked for an IP if the same IP both fetches the launch page and completes a media file.
Previously it worked for 81-82% of the people who clicked the play button. I pulled yesterdays numbers and it was only 72%. Both are still clearly a majority. :) This is in the same general range as flash penetration, at least for flash 8+... and it's way better than before I setup the player: about 0% could just click a theora file and play it ;)
These are promising numbers. What I would suggest to get better numbers is
1) Add a link to an example video file to the sitenotice for a couple of weeks (or random sample of readers); 2) Add a question "Did the video play without problems in your browser" to the page and capture the numbers.
If we end up somewhere in the 60-70% success range I guess that's acceptable, but I'd like this confirmed with a reasonable sample of users and an explicit question.
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
If we end up somewhere in the 60-70% success range I guess that's acceptable, but I'd like this confirmed with a reasonable sample of users and an explicit question.
Also, one important thing to check for is whether this level of success is reasonably evenly distributed by origin. If entire countries have trouble playing video, that's still a massive usability problem.
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
If we end up somewhere in the 60-70% success range I guess that's acceptable, but I'd like this confirmed with a reasonable sample of users and an explicit question.
Also, one important thing to check for is whether this level of success is reasonably evenly distributed by origin. If entire countries have trouble playing video, that's still a massive usability problem.
In that regard we're already going to be screwed: Without enough bandwidth to transfer the file in a reasonable amount of time video is useless, most of the surface of the earth doesn't have connectivity out there to support video. And all the bandwidth in the world won't help when you're browsing with a 386/33 ... a system which can't play video with any of the formats discussed.
Once you've considered the basic technology access issues, factors that we could possibly control will probably only have a small impact.
Right now the only project which I am sure are using the player are Enwikipedia, and Commons. I understand that it's been copied over to a number of other projects, I've left that up to whomever is interested. It doesn't help that the player isn't localizable (although I reduced the text in it to a minimum, the next version will be).
There doesn't appear to be any country bias for people who can't play it.. but the numbers of people who try are so English heavy that any such bias would be hard to see.
Out of the big data set, the country codes which successfully played files are included here. They compare well to enwiki's edit numbers at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edits_by_project_and_country_of_origin Too bad we didn't collect commons data at the time.
pct of files country ---------- ---------- 46.161705 US 8.380746 GB 5.744694 CA 4.793547 None (the geodb I used has no answer for these IPs) 4.283144 DE 3.314089 FR 3.244331 AU 1.949951 JP 1.809875 NL 1.151989 PL 1.118146 IT 1.053846 ES 1.039349 SE 0.908946 BE 0.831416 BR 0.690950 CH 0.668656 FI 0.622678 NO 0.619389 IN 0.576579 SG 0.521002 DK 0.508357 IE 0.484698 HK 0.447614 AT 0.433531 TR 0.432386 PT 0.430875 NZ 0.417986 TH 0.417084 PH 0.398372 RO 0.389259 MY 0.373787 IL 0.360776 HU 0.315554 CZ 0.274864 MX 0.251035 AR 0.246479 TW 0.228570 GR 0.223868 RU 0.195068 ZA 0.189123 CL 0.175381 HR 0.167730 SI 0.160835 AE 0.157229 KR 0.156035 LT 0.146922 SA 0.140393 EE 0.137907 EG 0.114858 BG 0.106988 SK 0.102017 CO 0.094513 VN 0.092515 PR 0.091248 MA 0.088592 ID 0.086545 CS 0.085546 IS 0.084036 PE 0.080673 VE 0.077067 LV 0.063740 MT 0.058598 CR 0.054627 PK 0.052580 CN 0.048170 LU 0.042444 KW 0.037596 UA 0.034696 QA 0.029969 IR 0.029141 JO 0.028020 MK 0.027728 BA 0.025608 DO 0.025413 PA 0.025096 LK 0.024511 A2 0.023805 BH 0.022635 CY 0.021880 JM 0.019590 DZ 0.018688 EU 0.016958 UY 0.016958 TT 0.016032 EC 0.016008 OM 0.014668 LB 0.014034 GE 0.013620 GT 0.013547 SV 0.012743 BS 0.012231 BN 0.011305 MO 0.010282 KE 0.009965 NI 0.009965 BO 0.009746 SY 0.008796 TN 0.008138 NG 0.008041 BD 0.007870 HN 0.007846 MU 0.007602 AL 0.007578 BM 0.007383 AW 0.006774 AN 0.006432 GU 0.006335 BB 0.006067 AZ 0.005701 GI 0.005628 KZ 0.005239 YE 0.005141 MD 0.004995 BY 0.004897 MN 0.004361 MC 0.004313 LY 0.004166 FJ 0.004020 CI 0.003972 SN 0.003874 GD 0.003850 FO 0.003850 AG 0.003387 GH 0.003216 NP 0.002997 MV 0.002924 TZ 0.002899 BW 0.002705 UZ 0.002583 VI 0.002583 AM 0.002412 PY 0.002388 BZ 0.002266 LI 0.002242 ZW 0.002193 KY 0.002144 PF 0.002047 UG 0.001925 ET 0.001876 VC 0.001852 SD 0.001681 IQ 0.001511 ML 0.001486 KH 0.001486 AD 0.001413 ZM 0.001413 LC 0.001364 NC 0.001316 PS 0.001267 NA 0.001243 GL 0.001194 BF 0.001170 HT 0.001170 DM 0.001096 AI 0.001048 MG 0.001023 RW 0.000999 SM 0.000950 LA 0.000926 CM 0.000902 MP 0.000877 KN 0.000877 AP 0.000853 MZ 0.000682 VG 0.000658 AO 0.000633 MW 0.000585 TG 0.000536 PG 0.000536 GM 0.000463 GA 0.000463 BJ 0.000439 PW 0.000439 CK 0.000365 TO 0.000365 CV 0.000365 AF 0.000341 WS 0.000341 SR 0.000317 SC 0.000317 MR 0.000317 CD 0.000292 KG 0.000292 FM 0.000268 DJ 0.000244 SB 0.000244 MM 0.000219 VU 0.000219 SL 0.000219 NE 0.000146 TJ 0.000146 SO 0.000146 BT 0.000146 BI 0.000122 FK 0.000097 SZ 0.000073 CF 0.000049 KI 0.000024 VA 0.000024 NF 0.000024 MQ 0.000024 MH 0.000024 GN 0.000024 ER 0.000024 CG 0.000024 AS
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
In that regard we're already going to be screwed: Without enough bandwidth to transfer the file in a reasonable amount of time video is useless, most of the surface of the earth doesn't have connectivity out there to support video. And all the bandwidth in the world won't help when you're browsing with a 386/33 ... a system which can't play video with any of the formats discussed.
Yes. One could have a YouTube control video, which would probably be a good idea in any case.
Right now the only project which I am sure are using the player are Enwikipedia, and Commons. I understand that it's been copied over to a number of other projects, I've left that up to whomever is interested. It doesn't help that the player isn't localizable (although I reduced the text in it to a minimum, the next version will be).
There's another item for the roadmap ..
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
In that regard we're already going to be screwed: Without enough bandwidth to transfer the file in a reasonable amount of time video is useless, most of the surface of the earth doesn't have connectivity out there to support video. And all the bandwidth in the world won't help when you're browsing with a 386/33 ... a system which can't play video with any of the formats discussed.
Yes. One could have a YouTube control video, which would probably be a good idea in any case.
YouTube's TOS conflicts with most free licenses.
I just found out Erik's video thread also exists on Foundation-l. Readers there may want to see the lively discussion on commons-l (http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2007-July/thread.html).
Kelly Martin also has an interesting blog post on the matter at: http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2007/07/peace-love-and-progress-bu...
Continue reading this email to see an interesting point:
On 7/20/07, (on commons-l) geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
YouTube's TOS conflicts with most free licenses.
YouTube's TOS is pretty bad but they aren't alone.
In YouTube's case having a lot of free content would likely be against their business model: If people can legally duplicate their collection its value to them is reduced. ;)
Here are some hunks of another TOS. I think it's important so please take the time to read it:
"This terms of use agreement (the "Agreement") governs your use of the collection of Web pages and other digital content (the "Collections") available (...). When accessing (a) page, you will be presented with the terms of use agreement. If you do not agree to these terms, please do not use the (...) Collections or its Web site (the "Site"). ... Access to the (...) Collections is provided at no cost to you and is granted for scholarship and research purposes only. ... Some of the content available through the Archive may be governed by local, national, and/or international laws and regulations, and your use of such content is solely at your own risk. You agree to abide by all applicable laws and regulations, including intellectual property laws, in connection with your use of the Archive. In particular, you certify that your use of any part of the Archive's Collections will be noncommercial and will be limited to non infringing or fair use under copyright law. ...
Where did this come from? This is from the TOS for the Internet Archive, the organization Erik would prefer be hosting our video.
Serving large files is technically easy compared to what we are already doing. Our techs don't see a need. ... We have a better recognized name, and more traffic today. I just don't see the justification for hosting anything of ours there.
Collaboration is another matter. No one is opposed to that.
But when Erik meets with the Internet Archive to talk Wikimedia technical stuff without consulting with the board, the community, the technical staff, or even being aware of the current status of our existing video support ... that isn't just isn't how collaboration happens. It was my understanding that Erik was out there for Omegawiki, and not Wikimedia in any case.
It's good if people are able to make visits for us while on other trips: but not if it isn't people with the right information...
Gregory, the problem with your position is the fundamental assumption of bad faith that runs through so many of your arguments. Whether it's Creative Commons 3.0 or a collaboration with the Archive, other organizations are always insufficiently committed to freedom and therefore impossible to collaborate with.
The problem with this kind of free culture isolationism is that dogmatic blindness achieves exactly the opposite of what you are hoping for. It will lead to other projects which haven't spend a minute even thinking about the implications of copyright and file format policies becoming dominant, simply because they choose to adopt mainstream technology and put ease of use before anything else. It will lead to us being overwhelmed and understaffed as we refuse to accept help from anyone who isn't already carrying the same flag we are carrying. We need balance and reason, not dogma and hostility.
Creative Commons, the Internet Archive, Mozilla, and others are very valuable institutions of a broadly defined movement towards making terabytes worth of cultural works available online, reducing barriers to access, providing freely usable & freely licensed tools, developing sane legal frameworks, and so on. I, too, would prefer it if these institutions would generally advocate similarly high standards of freedom as we do, and where this is not the case, I generally try to persuade them to do so.
However, that does not negate their efforts, nor does it mean that we should avoid working with them. We should try to help them when we think they could do better. We should treat them as potential friends and allies, not alienate them with a priori assumptions about their motives and their direction.
Case in point: You argue that the Archive is not a suitable partner because they are currently not supporting Theora. Well, they are already supporting Vorbis for many of their audio collections, and according to Brewster, the main reason for the lack of Theora support is quite simply that there has not been substantial demand for it so far. We, as a partner, could make it quite clear that Theora is a requirement for a collaboration around video hosting. Indeed, I already said as much to Brewster, and he signaled that adding Theora support to their transcoding pipeline would not be much of an issue at all.
If you want to effect policy changes in other organizations, you need to start talking to them! A partnership with WMF would push them towards adopting free formats, because it would be an implicit requirement for such a partnership to happen. Similarly, their Terms of Service were last updated in March 2001, before Creative Commons and others even existed to raise awareness of the importance of licensing and content freedom. I doubt that anyone but the lawyer who wrote the thing even has looked at it since then. Have you tried to send them feedback about it? Once again, _talk_ to people, don't just condemn what they are doing.
It's exactly the same with CC 3.0 and many other issues. Your stance tends to be: "No! These people are doing bad things! We should stay away from them! Don't you dare talk to them!" My position is: If we want our ideas to spread, we need to reach out to others and _convince_ them, not condemn them, as part of the process of collaboration. And, if that process goes both ways, and people in our community are convinced that they are sometimes too militaristic about certain issues, I don't think that would be unhealthy or unhelpful at all.
Yours is a position of rigid, dogmatic isolationism -- not one of open-minded, thoughtful outreach. That's regrettable, and I do not share it, and intend to continue talking to others, listening to them, and trying to reason with them instead. Wikimedia needs to go beyond navel gazing and self-paralysis; it needs to continue to reinvent itself and work with others in achieving its mission of building a global, free culture and achieving free education for all.
On 7/21/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Gregory, the problem with your position is the fundamental assumption of bad faith that runs through so many of your arguments.
Whether it's Creative Commons 3.0 or a collaboration with the Archive, other organizations are always insufficiently committed to freedom and therefore impossible to collaborate with.
The problem with this kind of free culture isolationism is that dogmatic blindness achieves exactly the opposite of what you are hoping for. It will lead to other projects which haven't spend a minute even thinking about the implications of copyright and file format policies becoming dominant, simply because they choose to adopt mainstream technology and put ease of use before anything else. It will lead to us being overwhelmed and understaffed as we refuse to accept help from anyone who isn't already carrying the same flag we are carrying. We need balance and reason, not dogma and hostility.
Creative Commons, the Internet Archive, Mozilla, and others are very valuable institutions of a broadly defined movement towards making terabytes worth of cultural works available online, reducing barriers to access, providing freely usable & freely licensed tools, developing sane legal frameworks, and so on. I, too, would prefer it if these institutions would generally advocate similarly high standards of freedom as we do, and where this is not the case, I generally try to persuade them to do so.
However, that does not negate their efforts, nor does it mean that we should avoid working with them. We should try to help them when we think they could do better. We should treat them as potential friends and allies, not alienate them with a priori assumptions about their motives and their direction.
Case in point: You argue that the Archive is not a suitable partner because they are currently not supporting Theora. Well, they are already supporting Vorbis for many of their audio collections, and according to Brewster, the main reason for the lack of Theora support is quite simply that there has not been substantial demand for it so far. We, as a partner, could make it quite clear that Theora is a requirement for a collaboration around video hosting. Indeed, I already said as much to Brewster, and he signaled that adding Theora support to their transcoding pipeline would not be much of an issue at all.
If you want to effect policy changes in other organizations, you need to start talking to them! A partnership with WMF would push them towards adopting free formats, because it would be an implicit requirement for such a partnership to happen. Similarly, their Terms of Service were last updated in March 2001, before Creative Commons and others even existed to raise awareness of the importance of licensing and content freedom. I doubt that anyone but the lawyer who wrote the thing even has looked at it since then. Have you tried to send them feedback about it? Once again, _talk_ to people, don't just condemn what they are doing.
It's exactly the same with CC 3.0 and many other issues. Your stance tends to be: "No! These people are doing bad things! We should stay away from them! Don't you dare talk to them!" My position is: If we want our ideas to spread, we need to reach out to others and _convince_ them, not condemn them, as part of the process of collaboration. And, if that process goes both ways, and people in our community are convinced that they are sometimes too militaristic about certain issues, I don't think that would be unhealthy or unhelpful at all.
Yours is a position of rigid, dogmatic isolationism -- not one of open-minded, thoughtful outreach. That's regrettable, and I do not share it, and intend to continue talking to others, listening to them, and trying to reason with them instead. Wikimedia needs to go beyond navel gazing and self-paralysis; it needs to continue to reinvent itself and work with others in achieving its mission of building a global, free culture and achieving free education for all. -- Toward Peace, Love & Progress: Erik
Perhaps you are too ready to assume the worst of your critics by simply dismissing their arguments as dogmatic and unhelpful rather than reading what they say. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone does not agree with you on your approach that they don't want your same end goals.
I want to work with people, too. But I don't think that requires compromises such as allowing patent-encumbered video onto the site, and any partnership that requires such things is no benefit to us.
So we should talk, yes, of course, and make proposals, float ideas, find commonality -- and we should also, we *must* also meet those proposals critically according to our own standards. We should not compromise simply to be agreeable when we would not otherwise do so.
Your initial post was not talking about the benefits of talking, sharing ideas, pursuing communication. Your post was a proposal, your subject line a thesis statement. Don't mistake criticism of that proposal for criticism of the wider process.
It's great to come around with a new idea. In this case everyone can see what's good about it, and perhaps that not being mentioned in the thread gives the wrong impression. But I think it is more important, when presented with something with obvious merit, to point out what's wrong with it. A terrible idea isn't worth the time it take to criticize it. An almost-good idea is, because it is attractive enough that if no one points out the flaws they may easily be missed.
On its own, independent of other considerations, making video accessible to more people is good. No one is disputing that. There's no point in even bringing up the point; it's obvious. Sharing resources with organizations that have overlapping goals: also good. No one needs to say this.
There's a nice page on Ward's Wiki, "CriticsAreYourBestFriends" -- http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CriticsAreYourBestFriends. (And I believe that, which is why I like Greg. :-)) I don't think anyone's posts have been saying that we should never work with IA, that we should not treat them in general as allies. But it is simple fact that however strong the overlap, their mission and approach are not the same as ours, and we have to consider those differences with a critical eye even as we would like to make the best of what we have in common, if we care at all about maintaining what we have held to be important.
-Kat
On 7/21/07, Kat Walsh kat@mindspillage.org wrote:
I want to work with people, too. But I don't think that requires compromises such as allowing patent-encumbered video onto the site, and any partnership that requires such things is no benefit to us.
The Internet Archive does not impose any such requirement. I simply proposed the two together because, IMHO, it makes strategic sense to try to improve both usability and hosting in one fell swoop. But we could work with any player solution if we decide to host content on their site.
I repeat my point with regard to Flash that I really do believe we need more carefully collected data about whether users successfully can play back video without significant problems. That's independent of whether we want to allow playing back selected IA collections using an embedded Theora player, for example -- this would only require that the Archive transcodes those collections, and everything else would be done on our end.
On 7/21/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Gregory, the problem with your position is the fundamental assumption of bad faith that runs through so many of your arguments. Whether it's Creative Commons 3.0 or a collaboration with the Archive, other organizations are always insufficiently committed to freedom and therefore impossible to collaborate with.
Way to form a character assault Erik. :(
At this point I think I have a right to push on these things.
For video, I've been involved for ages, building actual support software, quietly pushing things along like the progress on WhatWG HTML5 standards, advocating participation.
It's insulting as hell that you just trampled all over the work I've done on video, by running around totally underinformed about the efforts of people other than you and orgs other than ours.
Regarding Creative Commons 3.0: I saw a draft which included the unacceptable language in December 2006. I politely pointed out the flaws in the proposed wording. Out of common courtesy I respected the confidentality of the draft, but even without that factor there was no reason for public discussion at that point.
The flawed language was not included in any of the public drafts which were released later. I thought the matter was resolved. Then the license was released with the problematic language included.
No one from Creative Commons has been willing to comment on the matter in an official capacity, to the best of my knowledge. It's been months since the release. Plenty of time to talk and respond. There is widespread agreement that at best the license is confusing.
As far as I can tell we are easily one of the largest repositories of strongly-free content. For us it's pragmatic and business as usual to say that we won't use it until the issues are addressed, not dogmatic.
hoping for. It will lead to other projects which haven't spend a minute even thinking about the implications of copyright and file format policies becoming dominant, simply because they choose to adopt mainstream technology and put ease of use before anything else. It
Yet we are the 800-pound gorilla in some spaces today, even given the limitations we have chosen.
There are many risks we face, but we must analyze them carefully and weigh them. We must treat our peers with respect, but we can not make decisions based on the friends we'll be able to claim by simply appeasing people whose goals diverge from ours.
If you think that video support and cc-by-(sa)-3.0 are really our biggest risk factors, you have wildly misplaced priorities. They are both minor areas.
No one in the video space is honestly competing with us in our core business space... and the overwhelming majority of CC license users are using licenses we don't accept because they are clearly incompatible with our goals.
Meanwhile, other projects like CZ might actually solve the terrible quality consistency problems we have... As a reader that's what would make me switch favorite encyclopedias... not a six-month delay in accepting cc-by-*-3.0.
[snip]
I, too, would prefer it if these institutions would generally advocate similarly high standards of freedom as we do, and where this is not the case, I generally try to persuade them to do so.
Often what they do is perfectly right considering their goals. I don't think our business should be to persuade them. We should speak clearly about where we stand and look for commonalities.
We also shouldn't walk in completely misinformed. I know you mean well, Erik, but the reality is that you have your own agenda, one which has much in common with mine, and with Wikimedia's, but I am not so foolish to think it is the same.
[snip]
and allies, not alienate them with a priori assumptions about their motives and their direction.
Where did I say that anyone has a bad motive?
Some people don't have the same motives that we do, that doesn't make them bad. There is more than one right answer to many problems, and neither I nor WE are so bright to have the right solutions to everything.
Case in point: You argue that the Archive is not a suitable partner because they are currently not supporting Theora.
Cite? I've given a half dozen reaons why there is no cause to host video there. So have several Wikimedians and Wikimedia employees. Are we all guilty of insulting the Archive?
If you want to effect policy changes in other organizations, you need to start talking to them!
Indeed. Yet the board was unresponsive when I asked for permission to approach Mozilla on the matter of format support a year ago. Eventually the message that I, and Mdale, wanted to bring got brought to them through other avenues.
[snip]
Have you tried to send them feedback about it? Once again, _talk_ to people, don't just condemn what they are doing.
I didn't condemn it. They are a library. It's fantastic work. It's not the same as our work. Their TOS has been raised before, but perhaps not in the right forums.
And of course I'd love to talk to them about it, but your like to harbor meetings with technical projects for yourself, often holding them under the guise of your other projects... You do not invite other Wikimedia folks to attend in most cases, or even ask for input from other Wikimedia folks before these.
(Easy examples being your meetings with Encyclopedia of Earth, and the recent meeting with the Internet Archive.)
It's exactly the same with CC 3.0 and many other issues. Your stance tends to be: "No! These people are doing bad things! We should stay away from them! Don't you dare talk to them!"
Don't you dare misrepresent me like that Erik. You know that is untrue. The only reason I have suggested that we reject the licenses is that they refuse to talk to us.
[remove insults]
That's regrettable, and I do not share it,
I'm glad I'm different than you. I regret you can't find more polite language to discuss our differences. If your words were not just selected to spite me then you misunderstand me greatly... Perhaps I misunderstand you as well, but we aren't going to advance by hurling insults.
I'm sorry this happened. I'll look into how this happened, but my understanding was that the language that was used was what was in the draft.
- Joi
On Jul 21, 2007, at 2:59 JST, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
Regarding Creative Commons 3.0: I saw a draft which included the unacceptable language in December 2006. I politely pointed out the flaws in the proposed wording. Out of common courtesy I respected the confidentality of the draft, but even without that factor there was no reason for public discussion at that point.
The flawed language was not included in any of the public drafts which were released later. I thought the matter was resolved. Then the license was released with the problematic language included.
-- My Blog - http://joi.ito.com/ My Photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/ Facebook Profile - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=505656997 LinkedIn Profile - http://www.linkedin.com/profile?key=1391
On 7/21/07, Joichi Ito jito@neoteny.com wrote:
I'm sorry this happened. I'll look into how this happened, but my understanding was that the language that was used was what was in the draft.
If it was the language in the public drafts during 2007 I am gravely mistaken and owe an apology.
It *was* the language in a Dec 2006 draft I was given privately. Because I did not see the language in later drafts I believed it was dropped from consideration, I was in error to make that assumption regardless of anything else that went on.
An example draft: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-licenses/2007-February/005013.html
Even if this isn't confusion on my part, then this still isn't the end of the world.
There does appear to be a widespread belief that the current language is confusing, so I can't say that I'll be too happy if the end result is nothing more than to agree to disagree, but I am happy to see some progress. ;)
Thanks for your attention.
-- Greg
On 7/21/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
The flawed language was not included in any of the public drafts which were released later. I thought the matter was resolved. Then the license was released with the problematic language included.
The crucial point is that both on this issue and on others, there has been a disturbing quickness to condemn and a frustrating reluctance to communicate. The only reason this is beginning to change seems to be that people from the CC Board are now on the relevant mailing lists, not that there has been more outreach from us to them. I don't mean to get on your case too harshly, but let's please try to reach out to the relevant people whenever possible. I can help and do respond to e-mail.
Meanwhile, other projects like CZ might actually solve the terrible quality consistency problems we have... As a reader that's what would make me switch favorite encyclopedias... not a six-month delay in accepting cc-by-*-3.0.
I don't see a reason for any further delays, but I agree that the quality issue is paramount. Work on that is ongoing; I'll also make sure it will be a pertinent point on the agenda during the Wikimania meetings.
Case in point: You argue that the Archive is not a suitable partner because they are currently not supporting Theora.
Cite?
"Indeed, they have a lot of transcoding infrastructure in place... Yet they don't offer their video content in free formats. ... You have been advocating parallel distribution in free and non-free formats, an action which I and others have argued is inconsistent with our long-term mission social good, but it is an action which is at least worth discussion. But IA doesn't manage to even do this much."
Again, this seems like a case of being quick to condemn and reluctant to communicate. I believe we can work with the Archive and make sure that free formats become "first class citizens" in everything we do with them.
I've given a half dozen reaons why there is no cause to host video there.
Can you make me a quick bullet point list?
And of course I'd love to talk to them about it, but your like to harbor meetings with technical projects for yourself,
Just talk to me. I do tend to announce all my meetings on internal-l days if not weeks before they happen, unlike any other Wikimedian I know. This particular discussion was unplanned, which sometimes happens and should also be fine, but there are no firm outcomes as of yet. I can make an introduction to Brewster anytime you want.
On 21/07/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Again, this seems like a case of being quick to condemn and reluctant to communicate. I believe we can work with the Archive and make sure that free formats become "first class citizens" in everything we do with them.
What is the benefit of working with "the Archive"? Wikimedia already posses the capability to host videos, anyone with a computer that runs a OGG player or Java (nearly all systems) can play our video, and, as Greg points out, if there is clear consensus it is possible to integrate video into pages with little effort. Personally I think that would be unwise, although that is simply my opinion.
Just talk to me. I do tend to announce all my meetings on internal-l days if not weeks before they happen, unlike any other Wikimedian I know. This particular discussion was unplanned, which sometimes happens and should also be fine, but there are no firm outcomes as of yet. I can make an introduction to Brewster anytime you want.
Why interal-l? Surely, as a board member, you should be communicating with the wider community. A mssage on foundation-l wouldn't be that hard to do.
-UH.
May I also bring the lists readers attention to this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eloquence#Video_play_in_wiki_pages
-UH.
Just briefly: Trying on my machine at work (no admin rights here whatsoever...)
Apollo 15 liftoff from the Moon.ogg * Firefox 2.0.0.5 does not play at all * Opera 9.2.2 plays using Java, but the time display is broken, and I can't operate the slider (always on maximum) * Same on IE7
YouTube works just fine...
IMHO there is a simple solution. All our videos are free and can be reused, right? So, /another site/ could automatically download all out videos and convert them to Flash/whatever. And we could link to this site, "in case you cat'n see the video". The Java player is on the toolserver already.
Now, the Internet Archive could host that, right? Or Wikia. Or Google or Yahoo. Doesn't really matter, as long as we maintain good relations with them, so they won't drown their pages in ads, and link back to our ogg files.
Cheers, Magnus
I can also help with Mozilla stuff. I'm on the board of the foundation.
- Joi
On Jul 20, 2007, at 1:47 JST, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
On 7/19/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Last week I met with John Killy, the COO of the Mozilla Corporation, and with Brewster Kahle, ED of the Internet Archive. Mozilla intends to support video playback in Firefox using the new <video> tag [1], but such support is not likely to arrive before late 2008 according to John.
Thats nice that you met with Mozilla, it is a shame you didn't advise anyone in advance ... I could have given you some good talking points.
-- My Blog - http://joi.ito.com/ My Photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/ Facebook Profile - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=505656997 LinkedIn Profile - http://www.linkedin.com/profile?key=1391
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Last week I met with John Killy, the COO of the Mozilla Corporation, and with Brewster Kahle, ED of the Internet Archive. Mozilla intends to support video playback in Firefox using the new <video> tag [1], but such support is not likely to arrive before late 2008 according to John.
And seamonkey?
The Internet Archive currently does not transcode to Ogg Theora, but has a transcoding pipeline in place for other codecs. They have recently started embedding the Flash-based open source "Flow Player" for playing back FLV files directly in the browser, and have added FLV to their transcoding pipeline.
Significant differences between open source and free.
The Archive is happy to support us with video hosting in any way. If we can find a useful hosting arrangement with them, they would also be willing to add Ogg Theora to their transcoding pipeline.
You mean all the problems with using third partly licenses haven't convinced you that getting involved with people with different aims to us is a really bad idea?
Imagine that we could easily embed any currently hosted video from the Internet Archive into Wikimedia projects, but also make use of their immense hosting capacity for future video uploads beyond the current 20 MB upload size limit.
Immense hosting capacity? What about bandwidth?
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=archive.org&url=arch...
Video has tremendous potential educational use, and we should not let the Wikimedia projects fall behind when it comes to hosting video content. One should not underestimate the big role that ease of use played in the success of YouTube: thanks to embedded Flash video, users no longer had to worry about some plugin possibly hosing their Windows installation, or about Real Networks' eternal "Buffering ..." message showing up. It just worked [tm].
We are not interested in competing with youtube.
We must achieve the same ease of use in Wikimedia projects. In my opinion, inconveniencing users is the worst possible way to raise awareness of free content & free software. I therefore propose that
- we immediately begin serious discussions with the Internet Archive
about hosting some or all of our video content on their servers;
The stuff is under free licences they can host whatever they want. Not our problem unless they break the terms of the licences.
- All uploaded videos should be transcoded to at least Ogg Theora & a
Flash-compatible codec.
Write a patent free codec for flash and we can look into it.
- We support the open source Flash project Gnash to ensure that it
can be used for video playback on Wikimedia servers.
As and when they come up with something free of patents.
Having an open source Flash implementation & an open source Flash player does not address the patent issues with Flash video, but those who are concerned about violating software patents (which are not universally applicable anyway) could still use the provided Theora files. We could also add a clear message to this effect at the bottom of every embedded Flash video.
Um the people violateing the patents would be the wikimedia foundation.
Such a solution would be a reasonable compromise between trying to provide "free as in speech" video wherever possible, but also minimizing hassle and maximizing ease of use for typical Windows users looking for free educational content. We should continue to evangelize & use Ogg Theora, but not at the expense of usability.
I've seen that argument before. Generaly used by those in favor of adding copyvios to en.
On 7/20/07, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
Immense hosting capacity? What about bandwidth?
According to Brewster, they can support about 10 GBit/s of traffic, but I should double-check. We're currently peaking at 3 for all sites combined according to http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/trafstats/trafficstats-monthly.png
We are not interested in competing with youtube.
No, but we should be an alternative when it comes to providing freely licensed educational video content.
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Last week I met with John Killy, the COO of the Mozilla Corporation,
Erm, typo: The last name is Lilly, not Killy. :-)
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Erik Moeller wrote:
- We support the open source Flash project Gnash to ensure that it
can be used for video playback on Wikimedia servers.
Having an open source Flash implementation & an open source Flash player does not address the patent issues with Flash video, but those who are concerned about violating software patents (which are not universally applicable anyway)
[snip]
Last I checked, WMF is based in the United States, where they do apply. ;)
Really it's a matter of legal issues -- if WMF can confirm that it's not going to be a problem to encode files to FLV as well as to Theora, then there's no practical impediment to providing both formats.
It then comes down to the ideological question of whether we want to provide it as well, and frankly I have no interest in arguing such a question at this point. :P
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
On 7/19/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Mozilla intends to support video playback in Firefox using the new <video> tag [1], but such support is not likely to arrive before late 2008 according to John.
I didn't want to comment on this last night before getting an update, to make sure something hadn't changed since I last checked on this.
You make native Ogg support in firefox sound somewhat further off than I think it is. If you'd like to use it today, you'll have to build a copy of firefox with it:
http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/07/firefox-video-element-patch-version-2.h... http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/07/building-video-element-enabled-firefox....
(Chris is a Mozilla contractor who is working on the <video/> support)
So we have:
1) An existing player system which works on a substantial number of systems without any additional software installation.
2) For systems that it doesn't work for, support can be added either by installing Java (which is still required by many other sites), or by adding a media plugin (like VLC) both of which aren't specific to Wikimedia at all. 2b) Keep in mind that Flash doesn't ship built in to any desktop OS, it also requires an install, it just happens to be installed fairly widely. 2c) I could also make a point that Linux distros are already shipping Theora so right now the only zero install web video solution is Theora, but I agree that Linux desktops are utterly insignificant.
3) True native support support for Theora is already in the Opera beta, and in FF with a patch, and it will find its way into mainstream versions of these browsers sometime in the next year (especially with our support, no doubt). Nothing precludes MSFT joining in as well.. Perhaps it's not likely, but it wasn't them opposing Vorbis+Theora support in HTML5 (Apple was the only opposition).
So if software installation is acceptable we're already got what we need. If it's not acceptable, we're already not too far worse than if we were flash based (sometimes the powers that be have installed Flash, sometimes they have installed Java, sometimes both, sometimes none). ... and once mainstream browsers ship with native support, we'll have even better support for people who are unable or unwilling to install anything.
I must admit that one of the responses I initially considered was just to ignore the thread completely:
The addition of the transcoding infrastructure alone would be a substantial project with substantial complexity... I've basically been making our video work by myself with some help from Xiph folks (esp. Maik Merten) and our Mark Ryan (for the pretty skin). Although I've tried to solicit help from other folks inside Wikimedia and our communities, none has been forthcoming.
I suspect that if I had ignored the thread entirely nothing would have happened because the interest in actually doing something about Multimedia support is very small compared to the interest in talking about it or meeting with Big Names about it.
In any case. I've blathered enough on commons list for this month. I've 'shown you my code'. It's a kludgy solution at the moment but it apparently works for hundreds of thousands of people. With no action on our part it will magically become much better a yearish from now, and it doesn't compromise freedom in the slightest... thats a lot more than anyone can say about the hypothetical, trancoding, cross-site, flash based, web 2.5 speculation which has been offered as an alternative. :)
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
The addition of the transcoding infrastructure alone would be a substantial project with substantial complexity...
IA has already got the infrastructure in place.
I understand all the arguments and, as I noted, your initial data is promising. My view is that we need to collect more data on how many people currently have problems playing video. Based on that data we can make an informed decision whether additional measures should be taken, including possibly support for an embedded Flash player and the associated video codecs.
On 7/20/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 7/20/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
The addition of the transcoding infrastructure alone would be a substantial project with substantial complexity...
IA has already got the infrastructure in place.
That isn't exactly the sort of infrastructure I was thinking of, but this is an interesting subject:
Indeed, they have a lot of transcoding infrastructure in place... Yet they don't offer their video content in free formats. They do offer four or five encumbered formats in many cases, but they seldom offer free formats at all.
It's certainly not that they haven't been asked to offer unencumbered formats.
I don't think it's wise of you to to hold up IA as example of something done right here, although I am glad you did because it makes my argument easier.
You have been advocating parallel distribution in free and non-free formats, an action which I and others have argued is inconsistent with our long-term mission social good, but it is an action which is at least worth discussion. But IA doesn't manage to even do this much.
The practice of providing proprietary formats only, or otherwise leaving free formats as second-class citizens, is exactly the sort of negative outcome that someone might use in a strawman argument against parallel distribution. Except in this case, it's not a strawman -- it's IA's actual behavior.
So, as you pitch using the IA as a way of achieving the future, please realize that you're showing us a future which doesn't live up to your claims and which epitomizes some of the fears of those who disagree with you.