Who's in the top 10? :)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_d...
Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c) have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such single-minded obsessiveness. :)
Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing many people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is, though. Walk a fine line........
cheers Brianna user:pfctdayelise
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
Who's in the top 10? :)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_d...
Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c) have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the stuff he does is legal.
Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such single-minded obsessiveness. :)
Acknowledge.
Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing many people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is, though. Walk a fine line........
see above.
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forgot to say
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikide-l/2006-July/017614.html
similar case.
Paddy
--- Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de schrieb:
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
Who's in the top 10? :)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_d...
Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase
their
ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c) have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the stuff he does is legal.
Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such single-minded obsessiveness. :)
Acknowledge.
Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing
many
people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is, though. Walk a fine line........
see above.
___________________________________________________________ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de _______________________________________________ Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
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On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de wrote:
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
Who's in the top 10? :)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_d...
Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c) have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the stuff he does is legal.
What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private life???
Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of this data could be obtained.
Brianna
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private life???
Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find exactly this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty disturbing.
Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of this data could be obtained.
I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent is what disturbs me.
BTW see last post.
greetings
Paddy
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On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de wrote:
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private life???
Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find exactly this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty disturbing.
I don't really get why they would be disturbed to learn that you delete images as part of your administrator duties. If they're going to be disturbed that you are an administrator period, or you have an account on a wiki, well those pieces of information are already available aside from this one page.
Wiki actions are public; that is a very basic thing that if you can't accept, you should probably never have hit "edit" in the first place. let alone joined a publicly archived mailing list from an email account that has your real name on it.
Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of this data could be obtained.
I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent is what disturbs me.
Is not transparency in admin actions a good thing?
BTW see last post.
I saw it, but considering I can't read German, it didn't do much for me.
Brianna
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de wrote:
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private life???
Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find
exactly
this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty disturbing.
I don't really get why they would be disturbed to learn that you delete images as part of your administrator duties. If they're going to be disturbed that you are an administrator period, or you have an account on a wiki, well those pieces of information are already available aside from this one page.
Wiki actions are public; that is a very basic thing that if you can't accept, you should probably never have hit "edit" in the first place. let alone joined a publicly archived mailing list from an email account that has your real name on it.
Exactly how much someone wants to show of his private life publicly is everybodys personal problem. And what you are saying is: "if you already wear bathing trunks you might as well go naked". No I prefer not to. And I never agreed that statistics of my activities are published. And what I agree on is my problem.
Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all
of
this data could be obtained.
I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent
is
what disturbs me.
Is not transparency in admin actions a good thing?
Yes, but only to a point where it is usefull. Knownig that I deleted x images does not help you understand what I have deleted. I approve that you can see that I deleted an image but not how many. period!
BTW see last post.
I saw it, but considering I can't read German, it didn't do much for me.
See in Wikipedia there is one relevant english article and the other two are only in german but those laws apply:
en: [[Informational self-determination]] de: [[Bundesdatenschutzgesetz]] de: [[Teledienstedatenschutzgesetz]] should be the relevant german laws.
greetings
Paddy
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Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:
--- Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com schrieb:
Who's in the top 10? :)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_d...
Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c) have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the stuff he does is legal.
The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted by Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in Florida.
--- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" alphasigmax@gmail.com schrieb:
The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted by Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in Florida.
Apart from the fact that if German laws are stupid or not you are totally beside the point. BTW your laws in your country are stupid too (just to prove the point that arguments like that are useless).
I noticed that if people point out legal infringements people argue 1) The uploader is liable 2) The servers are in Florida They choose what suits them best.
Fact is that if you do not care about showing your ass in public there are still people that do. I see no argument for not respecting other peoples behaviour in the internet/in public. Give an argument why these statistical evaluations are so important for the project and why we can not do without. Otherwise I would like to see the page deleted.
greetings
Paddy
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Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:
--- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" alphasigmax@gmail.com schrieb:
The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted by Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in Florida.
Apart from the fact that if German laws are stupid or not you are totally beside the point. BTW your laws in your country are stupid too (just to prove the point that arguments like that are useless).
I noticed that if people point out legal infringements people argue
- The uploader is liable
- The servers are in Florida
They choose what suits them best.
Fact is that if you do not care about showing your ass in public there are still people that do. I see no argument for not respecting other peoples behaviour in the internet/in public. Give an argument why these statistical evaluations are so important for the project and why we can not do without. Otherwise I would like to see the page deleted.
In accordance with Sharia law (in effect in Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia etc.) I will start deleting all images which portray people.
--- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" alphasigmax@gmail.com schrieb:
In accordance with Sharia law (in effect in Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia etc.) I will start deleting all images which portray people.
I do not even understand what the hell you are talking about. But I have the strange feeling that you did not understand a word I said. Otherwise you could tell apart cheese and chalk and would not be writing such utter nosence.
greetings
Paddy
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Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:
I do not even understand what the hell you are talking about.
You claim that German law applies; I claim that Iranian law applies. Who is more correct?
--- Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de skrev:
I see no argument for not respecting other peoples behaviour in the internet/in public. Give an argument why these statistical evaluations are so important for the project and why we can not do without. Otherwise I would like to see the page deleted.
I had the vision of creating a list for the amusement of the administrators, where there would be monthly awards (a ribbon) to those three that delete the most images, and userboxes one could use saying e.g. "this user has deleted over 4k images". I had hoped this would encourage deletions.
The fierce restistance naturally takes the amusement away from the vision. If anyone else wants to fulfil my intention, go ahead.
Fred aka Fred-Chess
Fred:
Please don't take Paddy's answer as an indication of the responses from any of the rest of the project members. Based on every single response he has to this email list, I question his entire motivation for participation in the project at all, and I doubt he has any interest in constructive cooperation.
Cary Bass aka Bastique
--- Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de skrev:
I had the vision of creating a list for the amusement of the administrators, where there would be monthly awards (a ribbon) to those three that delete the most images, and userboxes one could use saying e.g. "this user has deleted over 4k images". I had hoped this would encourage deletions.
The fierce restistance naturally takes the amusement away from the vision. If anyone else wants to fulfil my intention, go ahead.
Fred aka Fred-Chess _______________________________________________ Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
--- Cary Bass bastique@bellsouth.net schrieb:
Fred:
Please don't take Paddy's answer as an indication of the responses from any of the rest of the project members.
True, maybe I should say in every sentence: "My opinion is..." to make clear that it is only the way I feel about the issue. Nevertheless I know that no admin was informed about this so how can they state their opinion on the issue? No matter if I am legally right or if I am just wrong, no matter if there are statistics about my activities somewhere else the point is it would have been polite if people would have been asked. I personally feel better if I can decide which data of me is made public and which is not and also how the data is put into graphs or statistics. If this data would be relevant for the wikimedia commons project I would say OK. But it is not so I do not. I prefer if people would not publish data or statistics about my activities without asking period. And please do not tell me that it is legally possible and that that there are other statistics about me and how I must feel about them. Just try to respect my feeling and wishes aswell as my person and everybody can be happy.
Based on every single response he has to this email list, I question his entire motivation for participation in the project at all, and I doubt he has any interest in constructive cooperation.
You are right there. Thanks for your understanding.
greetings
Paddy
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whoho I'm the 24 most active admin on commons, I would love to see the same numers for sv.
Grön
2006/8/14, Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de:
--- Cary Bass bastique@bellsouth.net schrieb:
Fred:
Please don't take Paddy's answer as an indication of the responses from any of the rest of the project members.
True, maybe I should say in every sentence: "My opinion is..." to make clear that it is only the way I feel about the issue. Nevertheless I know that no admin was informed about this so how can they state their opinion on the issue? No matter if I am legally right or if I am just wrong, no matter if there are statistics about my activities somewhere else the point is it would have been polite if people would have been asked. I personally feel better if I can decide which data of me is made public and which is not and also how the data is put into graphs or statistics. If this data would be relevant for the wikimedia commons project I would say OK. But it is not so I do not. I prefer if people would not publish data or statistics about my activities without asking period. And please do not tell me that it is legally possible and that that there are other statistics about me and how I must feel about them. Just try to respect my feeling and wishes aswell as my person and everybody can be happy.
Based on every single response he has to this email list, I question his entire motivation for participation in the project at all, and I doubt he has any interest in constructive cooperation.
You are right there. Thanks for your understanding.
greetings
Paddy
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de _______________________________________________ Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
--- Cary Bass bastique@bellsouth.net skrev:
Fred:
Please don't take Paddy's answer as an indication of the responses from any of the rest of the project members. Based on every single response he has to this email list, I question his entire motivation for participation in the project at all, and I doubt he has any interest in constructive cooperation.
Cary Bass aka Bastique
[[User:Kotepho]], who first created the page -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin -- (on my suggestion at [[commons_talk:Administrators]] ) didn't want to maintain it after the objections by Paddy. Someone needs to make a list and be prepared to update it once every month, if this idea is going to become something.
/ Fred Fred-Chess
--- Fredrik Josefsson fred_chessplayer@yahoo.se schrieb:
I had the vision of creating a list for the amusement of the administrators, where there would be monthly awards (a ribbon) to those three that delete the most images, and userboxes one could use saying e.g. "this user has deleted over 4k images". I had hoped this would encourage deletions.
The fierce restistance naturally takes the amusement away from the vision. If anyone else wants to fulfil my intention, go ahead.
Fred aka Fred-Chess
It would have been polite to explain this before doing so and ask the admins if they would or would not like to participate.
greetings
Paddy
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Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public. Part of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.
I find it most bizarre that you suddenly have an issue with this, and suggest - since it is unlikely to change - that you either accept it or leave the project, bluntly.
-Matt
(This mail is in response to a thread on Commons-l; I'm cross posting it to the toolserver list, because it seems relevant there. Ultimately, this should probably be discussed with the WMF and its local associates)
Please note that publishing "intelligence" obtained from analyzing person-related data may be considered a violation of that person's privacy, even if the analyzed data is publicly available - at least under German law and, afaik, EU guidelines. Data mining can expose things about a person that are not easily found out by looking straight at the raw data - this is often problematic, especially since the results can be quite misleading, as per the nature of the methods used.
If this is stupid or not is besides the point. We have been asked explicitly by the German Wikimedia e.V. not do make any analysis of user data available on the toolserver, so we won't (although i find it a bit hard to draw a line). If it would be legal for the US based foundation to do it, is a different question. A different question still is if it would be wise and desirable. To quote Wau Holland and the "hacker ethics" of the Chaos Computer Club: "utilize public data, protect private data". Information wants to be free - but so do people. In the end, the latter are more important.
I personally feel that any analysis that exposes information that is not *relevant* to activity on the project should be strictly opt-in. An example would be a breakup of user activity be time of days or day of the week. I'm not sure about things like the number of untagged images a user has uploaded, for example - that does seem relevant to me. If it's legal or wise to expose such an analysis is an open question to me (actually, I'd like to have some input on this, since my tools can give that statistic).
On the other hand, I believe that admins should expect to be subject to "public oversight". This is in my opinion an important part of an informal "watch the powerful" mechanism. We already have the ability to see a list of "admin action" an admin has performed. I'm a bit unsure about consolidating that log data into a statistics of deletions per week or whatever - I think we should ask ourselves how useful that would really be. In any case it should be made more obvious to people what "data trails" they leave when working on Wikimedia projects, as a "normal" user and as an admin.
General statistics about admin activity - i.e. sum of all admins, not per person, would be quite interesting, though, and unproblematic.
Regards, Daniel
Daniel Kinzler wrote:
(This mail is in response to a thread on Commons-l; I'm cross posting it to the toolserver list, because it seems relevant there. Ultimately, this should probably be discussed with the WMF and its local associates)
Please note that publishing "intelligence" obtained from analyzing person-related data may be considered a violation of that person's privacy, even if the analyzed data is publicly available - at least under German law and, afaik, EU guidelines. Data mining can expose things about a person that are not easily found out by looking straight at the raw data - this is often problematic, especially since the results can be quite misleading, as per the nature of the methods used.
For some value of "intelligence", yes.
If this is stupid or not is besides the point. We have been asked explicitly by the German Wikimedia e.V. not do make any analysis of user data available on the toolserver, so we won't (although i find it a bit hard to draw a line). If it would be legal for the US based foundation to do it, is a different question. A different question still is if it would be wise and desirable. To quote Wau Holland and the "hacker ethics" of the Chaos Computer Club: "utilize public data, protect private data". Information wants to be free - but so do people. In the end, the latter are more important.
The data we are dealing with *IS* public data.
I personally feel that any analysis that exposes information that is not *relevant* to activity on the project should be strictly opt-in. An example would be a breakup of user activity be time of days or day of the week. I'm not sure about things like the number of untagged images a user has uploaded, for example - that does seem relevant to me. If it's legal or wise to expose such an analysis is an open question to me (actually, I'd like to have some input on this, since my tools can give that statistic).
It's all relevant. Who we should make it available to is possibly a different manner.
On the other hand, I believe that admins should expect to be subject to "public oversight". This is in my opinion an important part of an informal "watch the powerful" mechanism. We already have the ability to see a list of "admin action" an admin has performed. I'm a bit unsure about consolidating that log data into a statistics of deletions per week or whatever - I think we should ask ourselves how useful that would really be. In any case it should be made more obvious to people what "data trails" they leave when working on Wikimedia projects, as a "normal" user and as an admin.
General statistics about admin activity - i.e. sum of all admins, not per person, would be quite interesting, though, and unproblematic.
How about a compromise here? Make the sum totals available to anyone, and the individual breakdowns only available to admins?
2006/8/10, Matt Brown morven@gmail.com:
It's my first mail here, on commons-l, so hello all :)
Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public. Part of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.
-Matt
Just a small thing:
http://tinyurl.com/hsyjs http://tinyurl.com/hdf5b
and a link with all statistics of admin activity on pl: http://tinyurl.com/l5fd7
I see no reason for deleting this page.
Also note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_administrators_by_edit_count http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:NoSeptember/crat_stats (bureaucrat statistics rather similar to what we were doing on commons - breaking up type of priveleged action) even look at this! http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/TablesWikipediaCOMMONS.htm I think it's quite out of date... but it exists.
As it does for all projects, including de.wp: http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaDE.htm
As I said on the deletion request... all the information - totals - is available on Interiot's edit tool http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=Pfctdayelise&am... . The totals are not opt-in.
And the data is even there for de.wp! http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=Duesentrieb&...
So I think this is really nothing new.
Brianna
On 10/08/06, odder odder.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
2006/8/10, Matt Brown morven@gmail.com:
It's my first mail here, on commons-l, so hello all :)
Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public. Part of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.
-Matt
Just a small thing:
http://tinyurl.com/hsyjs http://tinyurl.com/hdf5b
and a link with all statistics of admin activity on pl: http://tinyurl.com/l5fd7
I see no reason for deleting this page.
-- odder _______________________________________________ Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
--- Matt Brown morven@gmail.com schrieb:
I find it most bizarre that you suddenly have an issue with this, and suggest - since it is unlikely to change - that you either accept it or leave the project, bluntly.
Thanks for reminding me of my right to leave.
Paddy
PS I wonder if more comments like the german law is stupid, pack your bags and leave, bizzare,... follow. There has only been one person that is answering to the topic and that is daniel.
___________________________________________________________ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
On 8/10/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner paddyez@yahoo.de wrote:
PS I wonder if more comments like the german law is stupid, pack your bags and leave, bizzare,... follow. There has only been one person that is answering to the topic and that is daniel.
My comments were not with regard to German law whatsoever, but purely in response to your belief that actions - admin actions especially - should not be subject to oversight or statistics.
I could be persuaded that the actions of non-admin users might have this expectation of privacy.
I explicitly do NOT agree that oversight of the administrative actions of administrators should be restricted by privacy concerns. I believe that ordinary users of Wikipedia are already, rightly, cautious of over-reach in the use of admin powers, and that full openness is a crucial part of dealing with community concerns on that matter.
However, I do also agree that bare statistics, without explanation, are often less useful than they may seem, and the availability of a statistic may influence users socially in a way that might not be for the best. As an example, the use of ever-more-nitpicking standards for granting of admin rights, I think, can be laid partly at the feet of greater availability of highly detailed statistics on a user's history obtained via toolserver scripts.
Thus, I agree, caution is a good thing; I do not, however, agree that such caution is mandated by a right to privacy over one's admin actions, but rather by considering the value to the project.
-Matt