I'm very glad to see this issue finally engaged. The way it's resolved will have a substantial impact. on 10/24/06 6:37 AM, Cormac Lawler at cormaggio(a)gmail.com wrote: I'm not in the least knowledgeable on the workings of the Wikipedia, but I suspect there's a strong likelihood some individuals over there have become known as skilled in particular fields, and as responsible editors. I suspect something along this line will build up at the Wikiversity as well. It's inevitable over time certain individuals will accumulate merit and trust. In its deeper meaning this is what a teacher (or for that matter guru) really means. Someone who is trusted to give reliable instruction. It's institutions which hand out the titles. Which is where ego, personal prestige and rivalry then enters in. Inevitably. I agree with the concept the Wikiversity should start from scratch, that it shouldn't restrict or control who teaches or gives instruction. Let the merit accumulate. A marketplace solution. Having said that, it's also inevitable, over time, there will be a need for a thumbnail identification of individuals with merit. Don't know what or how that might unfold, but this too is inevitable. I should interrupt here to say that as a newcomer here I interpreted various postings and personal messages as making a hard line defence of the Board and appeared to be galloping as far away from "teaching" and "teachers" and "courses" as possible. This caused me much consternation. That can't be right, that can't stand. Which is exactly why I believe this discussion here is so very useful. Exactly how I would like to see the Wikiversity unfold. A policy of learning materials that cannot be put into service online (at least not on the Wikiversity) would have two effects. 1. The materials would have no provenance. Nothing to indicate how good or bad, how practical in a teaching situation. They might be accurate but how practical? With no visitor guidance on this issue the Wikiversity has no ability to build up its representation as a worthy resource. The reverse could well develop ‹ the Wikiversity as a dump, as a hodge podge. 2. With no online activity someone will fork the Wikiversity into an alternate site that actively supports online learning. In other words, take it commercial. This will happen anyway and is probably harmless. But in my view if the Wikiversity can do it itself in a no-advertising manner it will have much greater appeal to the public and likely gain grants from various bodies. Overall, a repository of learning materials, while worthy and useful, is only half the equation. By having active online learning as Cormaggio envisions above there will inevitably be cross fertilization from the online learning back to the course materials themselves. That's exactly the pattern in conventional learning institutions. One feeds the other. In my mind online learning as Cormaggio describes is very doable, even inevitable. Exactly how to do it remains for discussions such as this one. Lack of vision is the probable explanation. Most of us navigate by looking through the rear view mirror. I have the feedback from one "instructor" (a course on the Third Reich) saying he/she's very well pleased with how it's going. For the purpose of my current Wikiversity Newcomers page expansion it's my intention to survey other "course" leaders and discover how they're doing it, how well it's going and from that provide pointers to other would-be "leaders" on how it can be done. This is down the road a bit but was/is part of my original vision for a proper newcomers page. I also plan a similar section for would-be learners as well. In other words, learn from the participants both whether and how it works. Kind regards, Morley Chalmers -- Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau

The issue of credentials and authority keeps coming up. Inevitably keeps coming up. Therefore I am proposing a comprehensive statement on these topics specifically aimed at orienting newcomers. Before I poke a stick into a hornets nest, I'm asking for feedback here. Please say whether you like what follows or not and why. Please post your positives, as well as your negatives and revisions. Let's put together something that won't embarrass before posting to the newcomers page ‹ where it can then be further edited as much as anyone likes. There are pointers to other pages within the text. I'd appreciate someone to link to the relevant live pages. ===Credentials, diplomas & provenance=== The Wikiversity follows in the traditions of the Wikipedia, in other words collaborative creation and editing without reference to higher authority. [[What does that mean in practice?]] {The following appears on a separate page, available by clicking the above link.} * Will I earn a diploma at the Wikiversity? :No, that's one thing we don't do. This is about the learning itself, by itself. You cannot earn credentials here. But you can learn here and then earn your credentials elsewhere. * Are there exams at the Wikiversity? :Some course leaders may post some questionnaires so you can assess your learning progress. Course leaders may also give personal feedback on their observations of your progress. But there's no passing grade, no way to achieve status by your participation here. * Who gets to decide what gets posted here? :You do. Go ahead and post, no permission required. This project has no set-in-stone identification of authorship. Anything can be posted by anyone and then revised by anyone at any time. Each version is preserved. You can easily step back and compare one version to any other, see who performed the edits and communicate with those editors. :If you're an expert (or, better, "have proven expertise"), you need to prove that through your actions here, and be prepared to work with others in collaboration - just as they must likewise be prepared to work with you. This encouraging of equal participation is a positive factor in building a healthy community of learning, for the sake of learning. * How is "inappropriate" material kept off the site? :It isn't (except for Bombmaking 101 and similar). It's '''you''' who decides what's appropriate. There's no higher bureaucracy "authorizing" publication. (Copyrighted material is immediately removed, on discovery). :There are indeed senior custodians who debate what's an abuse and take corrective measures. These individuals earn whatever status they have by their past actions. That's the limit of their power and of any hierarchy at the Wikiversity. * What if someone wrecks a perfectly good course? :It's you who decides (at least in your eyes). Use the History tab at the top of the page and find the older version you like. Go ahead and use that version. Or better yet, integrate what you liked about the older version into the current version. You can also "fork" a course into two equivalent and equal versions covering the same subject but in different styles. Nothing at the Wikiversity is "definitive". * How can I determine whether the material here is any good? :By trying it out. It's your judgement call. If you can make it better, go ahead and edit. Note that every page has a Discussion area where you can post your observations and questions. You can review the History of a page, see who wrote which version and enter into dialogue with these individuals. Together we can, and will, make the material here stronger and stronger. * Who's authorized to teach? :You are, no credentials required. Yes, you can set yourself up as a teacher of anything, with or without any prior experience in the subject. If your students like the process, good, they'll probably continue working with you. If not, they'll likely wander away. You'll find all kinds of individuals teaching here, retired professional academics, currently active ones, people from industry and the self-taught with no formal qualifications at all. Ask course leaders for their backgrounds, or not. * If I teach, will I get paid, can I charge my students? :No, not through the Wikiversity. You can ask for donations if you like, but offsite and independently. We frown on fees as against the spirit of the Wikiversity. But we can't control such a practice, do not have the resources to police it. If we discover you're '''requiring''' payment for an online course conducted within the Wikiversity website or using the Wikiversity site itself to solicit donations we most likely will take action against you. The Wikiversity is free to all. * Can I download materials here and use them in my own offsite classes? Can I revise the materials? Must I make attribution to the Wikiversity? :Yes, yes and no. Download and use. [[Check here for how our learning materials are protected]] {Page reference to come} And definitely revise. Better yet, post your revisions back to the Wikiversity. Also post your experiences using the materials to the page's Discussion area. Give back and make the Wikiversity better. Finally, attributions to the Wikiversity are welcome but not required. * Who pays for the Wikiversity? :You do, by donations. [[Here's how you can make a donation]] {link to come} (entirely voluntary). Notice there's no advertising on the Wikiversity. We're non-commercial, entirely run by volunteers, operating costs covered by donations, from people like you. The Wikiversity is a facility for learning. Morley Chalmers -- Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau

Michael R. Irwin made some excellent observations for my proposed newcomers page dealing with Credentials, diplomas & provenance. I'm such a newcomer myself I'm puzzled by his reference to "the submittal form". Could someone elucidate? Below is the context. A search for "submittal form" produced no results. on 10/28/06 6:01 AM, Michael R. Irwin at michael_irwin(a)verizon.net wrote: Kind regards, Morley Chalmers -- Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau

Thanks to many comments received, my earlier posting has been considerably revised (and re-organized). Please comment here (and I'll incorporate in my next round of editing. Or visit http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Welcome%2C_newcomers#Proposed_New _Content and begin editing! The Wikiversity is for learning. A place where you'll find a learning materials ready for downloading and courses ready to take. Anyone can participate, no cost, no advertising, no credentials required, no degrees awarded ‹ just learning. Anyone can upload new teaching materials or revise the ones already here. Anyone can take a course. Anyone can teach a course. No entrance requirements. No fees. No certificate at the end. In the context of the Wikiversity, a course is an undertaking of a student to follow through a set of materials under the guidance of someone willing to teach. The Wikiversity follows in the traditions of the Wikipedia, in other words collaborative creation and editing. What does this mean in practice? In the [[Wiki]] tradition, the Wikiversity is constantly evolving, both its content and its [[Wikiversity:Policies|policies]]. While currently true, the following should not be taken as final. ===Credentials, diplomas & provenance=== * Will I earn a diploma at the Wikiversity? :No. That's one thing we don't do ‹ yet. At the moment you cannot earn credentials here. But you can learn here and then earn your credentials elsewhere. For now this is about the learning itself, by itself. * Are there exams at the Wikiversity? :Some course leaders may post some questionnaires so you can assess your learning progress. Course leaders may also give personal feedback on their observations of your progress. Wikiversity strives to help each person define and reach their personal learning goals, and so there shouldn't be any pressure to perform or fear of failure; instead, we promote learning through experience, which includes making mistakes. * Who gets to decide what gets posted here? :You do. Go ahead and post. A more complete answer is, "We all do." All Wikiversity pages may be created and revised by anyone. In this sense a Wikiversity page is being created a community, by those who choose to be active in the process. The result is pages which reflect the current consensus. Note that older versions can always be revived. Any vandalism can be undone by any user. :If you're an expert (or, better, "have proven expertise"), we encourage you to be prepared to work with others in collaboration - just as they are encouraged to work with you. This encouragement of equal participation is a positive factor in building a healthy community of learning, for the sake of learning. :Appeal to non-present or non-proven authority is not the normal expectation here. Much less is learning by authoritatively stating a fact with no supporting reasoning. We encourage a reasoned dialogue showing a neophyte the reasons, assumptions, etc. that make a commonly accepted fact in a given field of expertise to be commonly accepted. :The Wikiversity has no set-in-stone identification of authorship, or even a concept of single authorship. Each page version is preserved. You can easily step back and compare one version with any other, see who performed the edits and communicate with those editors. And indeed, enter into conversation with any of the editors about their choices. This is peer review of content. :This is community building by collaborative participation. * How is "inappropriate" material kept off the site? :Hate speech is unacceptable. Propaganda used as propaganda is unacceptable. ([[Wikiversity:Copyrights|Copyrighted]] material is immediately removed, on discovery.) :It's the community of active participants who decides what's irresponsible and inappropriate for the Wikiversity. That community includes you, if you choose. Content is challenged all the time. Community consensus may cause sections or whole pages to be removed. :If you feel strongly certain material should not be published, then start by posting your concerns on the page's Discussion area, and/or by contacting the various editors of the page (available from the page's History tab), and/or by posting your concerns on the [[Colloquium]]. :The Wikiversity is a [[Wiki]] driven by consensus building among its participants. ====Learning materials==== * Can I download materials here and use them in my own offsite classes? Can I revise the materials? Must I make attribution to the Wikiversity? :Yes, yes and yes. Download and use in your teaching. [[Wikiversity:GNU_Free_Documentation_License|Check here for how our learning materials are protected]]. And definitely revise. Better yet, post your revisions back to the Wikiversity. Also post your experiences using the materials to the page's Discussion area. Give back and make the Wikiversity better. :Finally, the [[Wikiversity:GNU_Free_Documentation_License|GPL license]] protecting the content of the Wikiversity '''requires''' attribution when our content is used elsewhere. You should do this by providing a link specific enough to find the starting point of the materials. * How can I determine whether the material here is any good? :By questioning, and by striving to understand the material yourself. It's your judgement call. If you can make it better, go ahead and edit. Note that every page has a Discussion area where you can post your observations and questions. You can review the History of a page, see who wrote which version and enter into dialogue with these individuals. Together we can, and will, make the material here stronger and stronger. ====Online courses==== * Who's authorized to teach? :Anyone with the motivation to help others learn, no credentials required. Wikiversity is about ''people learning how to learn as well as to teach'' ‹ we value expertise and experience, but we also value learning ''through experience''. :You'll find all kinds of individuals teaching here, retired professional academics, currently active ones, people from industry and the self-taught with no formal qualifications at all. Ask course leaders for their backgrounds, or not. :If your students like the course, good, they'll probably continue working with you. If not, they'll likely wander away. Or worse, raise objections. You can only maintain yourself in the role of instructor through meritorious contributions, positive feedback from the community and especially from those who participate in your online courses. Everything at the Wikiversity is subject to peer review. * If I teach, will I get paid, can I charge my students? :No, no fees are collected or paid for participation in the Wikiversity. Everything is voluntary. The Wikiversity is free to all. ====General==== *How can I become involved? :By visiting the [[Wikiversity:Community_Portal|Community Bulletin Board]]. There's a link in the sidebar under the Wikiversity logo. Here you'll learn what tasks need to be done, what groups can be joined. [{{fullurl:Special:Userlogin|type=signup}} You're vigorously encouraged to join]. It's free; as a member you identify your contributions and get a "Talk" page where you can engage in discussions. :Here's [[Help:Starting_a_new_page|how to start a new page]]. And here's [[Help:Editing|some editing tips]]. :Don't "sign" your submissions. That's done automatically and shown on the History of the page. But definitely sign your contributions to the Discussion page and any Talk page. Do this with four tildes (~). Here's more about [[Wikiversity:Signature|signatures]]. :Here's Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ|guidance on contributing]] . These principles generally apply to the Wikiversity as well. :Here's [[Wikiversity:Copyrights|guidance on copyright]]. Only public domain resources can be copied without permission ‹ this does '''not''' include the vast majority of web pages or images. :If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. :Be sure to visit the [[Wikiversity:Colloquium|Colloquium]] for general discussions. * What if someone wrecks a perfectly good course? :If you see a page which appears (at least in your eyes) to have been degraded from an earlier version, then enter into the editing process. :It's good practice to enter into dialogue with the editor who made the changes you feel are unfortunate. Propose a compromise. Discuss your feelings in the Discussion area of the page. Don't be afraid to be bold. Integrate what you liked about the older version into the current version. Use the History tab at the top of the page to compare any two versions of a page and see what changed. :There's also the option of "forking" a course into two equivalent and equal versions covering the same subject but in different styles. Nothing at the Wikiversity is "definitive". * Who pays for the Wikiversity? :You do, we all do, by donations. [[Wikiversity:Site_support|Here's how you can make a donation]] (entirely voluntary). Notice there's no advertising on the Wikiversity. We're non-commercial, entirely run by volunteers, operating costs covered by donations, from people like you and by grants from various institutions. The Wikiversity is a facility for learning. Morley Chalmers -- Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau

Morley Chalmers wrote: Movie making seems to be getting active: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Mad_Max%27s_-_Computer_Set_Up_for_Film_Scori… Intro to Java had a burst of activity but has slowed at the moment. I think what you are looking for is provided. The activity, or action, is best traced by the recent changes navigation log on left of your screen. Also you can see where your online friends or interesting people are putting their efforts and get a feel for where things of interest not on your watchlist might merit quick inspection. However several people try to maintain lists of active and pending "Learning Portals or Projects so these two links might work: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Learning_project http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Learning_Projects You might also recommend to newbies they consider participating at the colloquium and here at the mailing list. They should quickly get feel for peoples interest and know whose talk page to check or whose handle to follow in the recent changes log. Hope this was helpful. Sincerely, Michael R Irwin aka mirwin

Hi Morley, http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Template:Courses JWSchmidt put the template there. It can be safely edited from the above link. Also, the course catalogue has been moved to the correct location. -- Draicone On 11/6/06, Morley Chalmers <morley(a)morleychalmers.com> wrote:

I have included a Spanish and an English version in http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_site_feedback/main#Wikiversity_on_… Could someone check it? Greetings, Javier Carro. --- Florence Devouard <anthere(a)anthere.org> a écrit : http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l ___________________________________________________________________________ Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses http://fr.answers.yahoo.com

on 10/26/06 10:15 AM, Cormac Lawler at cormaggio(a)gmail.com wrote: Vigorously agree. I've received a posting from Michael Irwin which I'll be responding to separately. Michael's posting has prodded me to realize this issue of credentials, certification and provenance just won't go away. Certainly not by simply saying such issues just "aren't the wiki way". I now believe credentials, certification and provenance, as they apply to the Wikiversity need to be addressed directly, clearly explaining the benefits of openness in a positive light. I plan to put together a proposed statement, taking off from your above statement and other similar I've picked up from various posters. Something that addresses concerns of newcomers who worry about "where does this stuff come from", who authorizes it, what piece of paper am I going to get, etc. These questions will never end, are quite natural for newcomers who have zero prior experience with wiki. I propose to post my proposed text here first, for comment, modification, etc., before posting on the newcomers page ‹ where, of course, it can be further punched, pummelled and reshaped. Interesting. Had no idea that was in the works. Which leads to yet another phenomena ‹ organizations, especially non-profits, using the Wikiversity as a training facility. Raises a lot of issues such as internet load factors, their expectations as you mention, but a lot of positive ones as well. Essential. Move forward confidently, holding onto only the principles of openness and collaboration, not any particular mechanics of execution. Watch what people do with what's posted at the Wikiversity. Be prepared to be surprised. Be prepared to learn from the users. In the long run it will be the users who shape the Wikiversity. What's essential is a facility to encourage learning. All universities have outreach programs in one form or another. The Wikiversity should too. The first such project should be to constantly pull together what's new and worthy at the Wikiversity and let people know about it on the Wikiversity Main Page and the Newcomers page. I can foresee a need for volunteers to take up a self-assignment of discovery, then to craft stuff for the Main Page. Change it daily. Generate a constant internet buzz. But that's well down the road, but inevitable. I'm delighted to be here. Very exciting stuff. Morley Chalmers -- Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau