I have put together a first draught of the membership section of the proposed by-laws at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Canada/Membership
This is a very rough draught, but it puts out an initial structure. Please feel free to comment in the alternatives section below, or on the talk page. I would prefer that you avoid making changes to the draught itself, as this could make it difficult to maintain the structure of the article. I'll try to incorporate ideas as they are presented. When suggestions stall I hope to start a poll to see if there is indeed support for this section.
Ec
Hi,
On 4/21/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
I have put together a first draught of the membership section of the proposed by-laws at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Canada/Membership
I've added a comment on the talk page and a reference.
It's important to get the structure legally correct, but I think we can come to a consensus here about what we want in spirit, and perhaps involve someone with legal skill to then make sure it gets translated into legalese.
It seems there is a provision to revise bylaws as well. I'm not sure how difficult that is, and it's best we get it right the first time, but at least there is an option available to revise it in the future.
Please take a peek at the above link and comment.
Thanks, Gerald.
gerald lists wrote:
Hi,
On 4/21/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
I have put together a first draught of the membership section of the proposed by-laws at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Canada/Membership
I've added a comment on the talk page and a reference.
It's important to get the structure legally correct, but I think we can come to a consensus here about what we want in spirit, and perhaps involve someone with legal skill to then make sure it gets translated into legalese.
It seems there is a provision to revise bylaws as well. I'm not sure how difficult that is, and it's best we get it right the first time, but at least there is an option available to revise it in the future.
Having a section of the by-laws that establishes how the by-laws may be amended is pretty standard. It should not be a problem once we have figured out some of the other clauses, notably how voting rights are exercised.
Ec
Just a quick update, and a suggestion.
There has been a little discussion on the bylaws which we need to fulfill the legal requirements, and this work is going to be ongoing.
I'm going to suggest that we draft up the bylaws and seek legal advice to make sure they are compliant with Federal Law. We can then pass them back to Wikimedia Foundation to ensure they pass muster there. Once these two milestones are passed, we can post the proposed bylaws on the site and have a request for comment period (2 weeks? 1 month?) for people to raise objections. If we hear nothing back by then, we can instruct our legal adviser to proceed with filing the papers.
How does this sound? I would just like to put the process on a timetable and still allow ample public comment.
Thanks, Gerald.
gerald lists wrote:
I'm going to suggest that we draft up the bylaws and seek legal advice to make sure they are compliant with Federal Law. We can then pass them back to Wikimedia Foundation to ensure they pass muster there. Once these two milestones are passed, we can post the proposed bylaws on the site and have a request for comment period (2 weeks? 1 month?) for people to raise objections. If we hear nothing back by then, we can instruct our legal adviser to proceed with filing the papers.
How does this sound? I would just like to put the process on a timetable and still allow ample public comment.
Given that Delphine is chair of the Chapters Committee, and she has been present in these discussions, I'm sure that she will be pleased to raise any concerns that the Foundation. In view of her recent comments on another list I'm sure that she would prefer this to having a lot of comments come out after everything has been written.
If you think that you want legal advice before the comment period feel free to do so, but it should be made clear that any expense for that advice is entirely yours.
At this point I would much rather see interested persons taking an active interest, and making constructive comments for writing these by-laws. We will need an initial Board of Directors, and a willingness to actively participate in the process should be a positive indicator for choosing who will be on that board. When someone says, "I will be on the board if you can't find anyone else," I am inspired to look for someone else. Remember, that being on the board means accepting legal responsibility for Wikimedia Canada.
Ray
On 4/28/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Given that Delphine is chair of the Chapters Committee, and she has been present in these discussions, I'm sure that she will be pleased to raise any concerns that the Foundation. In view of her recent comments on another list I'm sure that she would prefer this to having a lot of comments come out after everything has been written.
I'm not sure what the formal process is; but since we would like the Foundation's support, it would make sense to seek that. If Delphine's presence here is enough, I'd be happy to cut out that part of the process.
If you think that you want legal advice before the comment period feel
free to do so, but it should be made clear that any expense for that advice is entirely yours.
Well, I don't think it makes much sense to craft up an entire package of bylaws, have a public review and then find out they have no basis in law. It only seems prudent to have some legal advice -- it might even save us time in debate later. As for expenses, I've indicated before that we need to come up with a budget. Once the chapter is formed, there will be some expenses just as a matter of existing. Before that, there will be some legal expenses for getting set up. Once we determine what these are (or at least have an estimate), then we can see how/where they would be funded.
At this point I would much rather see interested persons taking an
active interest, and making constructive comments for writing these by-laws. We will need an initial Board of Directors, and a willingness to actively participate in the process should be a positive indicator for choosing who will be on that board. When someone says, "I will be on the board if you can't find anyone else," I am inspired to look for someone else. Remember, that being on the board means accepting legal responsibility for Wikimedia Canada.
While I agree that active participation is necessary, I think that most people are better equipped to participate in things other then legal details like the bylaws. I've worked in a number of community organizations and really haven't dealt much with cause to be involved with the bylaw aspect of things.
As I've commented before, this has been "in planning" for quite some time. I'd like to put together a plan that has some kind of timetable, to ensure we're moving forward. I'm open to suggestions as to how to do this, as I think we are all after a common goal.
Thanks, Gerald.
Catching up on emails...
On 4/28/07, gerald lists geraldablists@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/28/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Given that Delphine is chair of the Chapters Committee, and she has been present in these discussions, I'm sure that she will be pleased to raise any concerns that the Foundation. In view of her recent comments on another list I'm sure that she would prefer this to having a lot of comments come out after everything has been written.
yes. This said, the input of the Foundation in the bylaws altogether is usually quite simple. The one thing we're going to look at is the mission (goals) and the way the relationship to projects and the Foundation are talked about. Unless you actually come up with really weird goals, there isn't much that the Foundation can do.
I'm not sure what the formal process is; but since we would like the Foundation's support, it would make sense to seek that. If Delphine's presence here is enough, I'd be happy to cut out that part of the process.
No, there is a "formal process" which consists of asking the chapter committee to review the bylaws as they are being made so that we can give directions as to the things that may be unacceptable. Once you have the final draft of the bylaws, the chapters committee presents a resolution to the board of the Foundation which usually says "aye", and off you go.
All of it is explained here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide requirements and guidelines should give you a good idea of what is "needed".
If you think that you want legal advice before the comment period feel free to do so, but it should be made clear that any expense for that advice is entirely yours.
Well, I don't think it makes much sense to craft up an entire package of bylaws, have a public review and then find out they have no basis in law. It only seems prudent to have some legal advice -- it might even save us time in debate later. As for expenses, I've indicated before that we need to come up with a budget. Once the chapter is formed, there will be some expenses just as a matter of existing. Before that, there will be some legal expenses for getting set up. Once we determine what these are (or at least have an estimate), then we can see how/where they would be funded.
Legal advice can be spared at the very beginning if you find standard bylaws which are probably easy to find anywhere for a Canadian non profit-like association. In any case, I do agree that starting from scratch is not the best way to go.
At this point I would much rather see interested persons taking an active interest, and making constructive comments for writing these by-laws. We will need an initial Board of Directors, and a willingness to actively participate in the process should be a positive indicator for choosing who will be on that board. When someone says, "I will be on the board if you can't find anyone else," I am inspired to look for someone else. Remember, that being on the board means accepting legal responsibility for Wikimedia Canada.
While I agree that active participation is necessary, I think that most people are better equipped to participate in things other then legal details like the bylaws. I've worked in a number of community organizations and really haven't dealt much with cause to be involved with the bylaw aspect of things.
yes. However, make sure that the bylaw writing is advertised as much as you can. People only start to join, even in the not-so-fun stuff when you've finally reached a consensus and decide to change everything at the last minute (the wiki way ;-)) or are unhappy that you've done this without them. :-)
A call on various lists and such probably is something you want to do at some point, don't forget the French speakers ;P
As I've commented before, this has been "in planning" for quite some time. I'd like to put together a plan that has some kind of timetable, to ensure we're moving forward. I'm open to suggestions as to how to do this, as I think we are all after a common goal.
Again, nothing better than someone pushing along that does not stop in mid-flight.
Go go go, they will join :-)
Delphine
On 5/8/07, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
yes. However, make sure that the bylaw writing is advertised as much as you can. People only start to join, even in the not-so-fun stuff when you've finally reached a consensus and decide to change everything at the last minute (the wiki way ;-)) or are unhappy that you've done this without them. :-)
A call on various lists and such probably is something you want to do at some point, don't forget the French speakers ;P
Yes. We need someone to translate; I'm disappointed that my written French is horrible and that most of our correspondence has been in English. We had two French people indicate interest, but neither responded to my latest ping. This is a priority, I think. Any volunteers?
Well, seeing as the "last minute" seems to be all the rage, we should try to wrap up discussion as quickly as possible. :)
Can we get a complete draft by-law arrangement drawn up by the end of the month? Is that overambitious?
As I've commented before, this has been "in planning" for quite some time.
I'd like to put together a plan that has some kind of timetable, to ensure we're moving forward. I'm
open to
suggestions as to how to do this, as I think we are all after a common goal.
Again, nothing better than someone pushing along that does not stop in mid-flight.
I've had some recent motivation, too. I was trying to approach sponsors for Wikimania. There were a few fairly large places that were willing and seemed ready to give -- but they will give only to a Canadian entity. Since WMF is US based, we aren't in the game until we get this going, which is a bit sad. So let's get this going!!!
We have the membership by-law, which seems to have languished a bit (discussion wise). I'm going to see if we can get a little "free" legal advice on the bylaw elements and their wording.
Would anyone like to have an IRC meeting so we can float dates and such back and forth? I'd like to believe we can get all of the legwork done before the end of Summer ... but I'm an optimist.
Gerald
gerald lists wrote:
On 5/8/07, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
yes. However, make sure that the bylaw writing is advertised as much as you can. People only start to join, even in the not-so-fun stuff when you've finally reached a consensus and decide to change everything at the last minute (the wiki way ;-)) or are unhappy that you've done this without them. :-)
A call on various lists and such probably is something you want to do at some point, don't forget the French speakers ;P
Yes. We need someone to translate; I'm disappointed that my written French is horrible and that most of our correspondence has been in English. We had two French people indicate interest, but neither responded to my latest ping. This is a priority, I think. Any volunteers?
Having the by-laws in two languages is not a legal requirement. There are indeed new problems when you have versions of a law in two different languages: In the event of a conflict between the two versions, which one prevails? If someone is familiar with French legalese, by all means that person should go ahead with a French version. Lack of such a version, however, should not be a factor that keeps us from moving ahead.
Well, seeing as the "last minute" seems to be all the rage, we should try to wrap up discussion as quickly as possible. :)
Can we get a complete draft by-law arrangement drawn up by the end of the month? Is that overambitious?
Sure! Who else is volunteering to draft some of the other sections? ... or making specific suggestions about what these sections should contain?
As I've commented before, this has been "in planning" for quite some time.
I'd like to put together a plan that has some kind of timetable, to ensure we're moving forward. I'm
open to
suggestions as to how to do this, as I think we are all after a common goal.
Again, nothing better than someone pushing along that does not stop in mid-flight.
I've had some recent motivation, too. I was trying to approach sponsors for Wikimania. There were a few fairly large places that were willing and seemed ready to give -- but they will give only to a Canadian entity. Since WMF is US based, we aren't in the game until we get this going, which is a bit sad. So let's get this going!!!
Predictable.
We have the membership by-law, which seems to have languished a bit (discussion wise). I'm going to see if we can get a little "free" legal advice on the bylaw elements and their wording.
OK.
Would anyone like to have an IRC meeting so we can float dates and such back and forth? I'd like to believe we can get all of the legwork done before the end of Summer ... but I'm an optimist.
I don't do IRC.
I would hope to have most things provisionally drafted before Wikimania, and be able to meet with members of the Chapters Committee who are there to negotiate an understanding about various issues including naming. A NUANS search can then be made shortly after we all return from Taipei. A 30 day "vote" can then be held to ensure that there is no serious objection to the proposed documentation so that everything can be submitted before the 90-day name reservation period expires.
Unless someone seriously insists that we need a lawyer for filing incorporation, the costs of incorporation appears to be $215.00. Ten charter members at $25.00 each should cover those costs. That should be collected after Wikimania.
Ec
On 5/11/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
gerald lists wrote:
Yes. We need someone to translate; I'm disappointed that my written French is horrible and that most of our correspondence has been in English. We had two French people indicate interest, but neither responded to my latest ping. This is a priority, I think. Any
volunteers?
Having the by-laws in two languages is not a legal requirement.
My reference wasn't specifically to the bylaws.
There are indeed new problems when you have versions of a law in two
different languages: In the event of a conflict between the two versions, which one prevails? If someone is familiar with French legalese, by all means that person should go ahead with a French version. Lack of such a version, however, should not be a factor that keeps us from moving ahead.
I do think from a pragmatic standpoint, at this point, having the legal version as "English" is the best approach. However, we have to make sure we are accessible in both languages, and I've gotten generous commitments of help on that front. So, our bylaws should be in French (with a disclaimer), and more importantly the main pages should now be up to date.
Can we get a complete draft by-law arrangement drawn up by the end of the
month? Is that overambitious?
Sure! Who else is volunteering to draft some of the other sections? ... or making specific suggestions about what these sections should contain?
Does anyone have a framework of what they should be? If not, I'll start knocking on the doors for legal advice. I don't mind writing, I do have to have a clue what we need to do so, though.
I've had some recent motivation, too. I was trying to approach sponsors for
Wikimania. There were a few fairly large places that were willing and
seemed
ready to give -- but they will give only to a Canadian entity. Since WMF
is
US based, we aren't in the game until we get this going, which is a bit
sad.
So let's get this going!!!
Predictable.
Agreed. So let's make sure we aren't in this position next year.
Would anyone like to have an IRC meeting so we can float dates and such back
and forth? I'd like to believe we can get all of the legwork done before
the
end of Summer ... but I'm an optimist.
I don't do IRC.
I'm not adverse to phone conversations, but the wiki culture seems to prefer IRC. I'll learn smoke signals if that facilitates moving this forward.
I would hope to have most things provisionally drafted before Wikimania,
and be able to meet with members of the Chapters Committee who are there to negotiate an understanding about various issues including naming. A NUANS search can then be made shortly after we all return from Taipei. A 30 day "vote" can then be held to ensure that there is no serious objection to the proposed documentation so that everything can be submitted before the 90-day name reservation period expires.
Unless someone seriously insists that we need a lawyer for filing incorporation, the costs of incorporation appears to be $215.00. Ten charter members at $25.00 each should cover those costs. That should be collected after Wikimania.
If we require help in drafting the bylaws, then I would say we should anticipate paying something for a lawyer. I'm not stuck on either way, just whichever gets it done.
Gerald
wikimedia-ca@lists.wikimedia.org