Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his preferences or at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of articles by dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his preferences or at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of articles by dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
For the case who concerned me now, codes exist for each dialect and are in fact considered distinct languages under a macrolanguage code. The macrolanguage code is cr and its Wikipedia already exist. None of its dialects have an existing Wikipedia and I'm not aware of any in the Incubator (although those could easily being created according to policies).
However, the community has mentioned after a discussion (by e-mails) that their preferred course of action is to keep only one Wikipedia for the community with all dialects. Now, they are only seeking advices and support on how to easily index content by dialect.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com a écrit :
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
How about using categories?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
For the case who concerned me now, codes exist for each dialect and are in fact considered distinct languages under a macrolanguage code. The macrolanguage code is cr and its Wikipedia already exist. None of its dialects have an existing Wikipedia and I'm not aware of any in the Incubator (although those could easily being created according to policies).
However, the community has mentioned after a discussion (by e-mails) that their preferred course of action is to keep only one Wikipedia for the community with all dialects. Now, they are only seeking advices and support on how to easily index content by dialect.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com a écrit :
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check
first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Yes that's my idea as well, but would prefer something more easy and intuitive for new contributors to insert those categories.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 10:48, "Carlos Colina" jewbask@wikimedia.org.ve a écrit :
How about using categories?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
For the case who concerned me now, codes exist for each dialect and are in fact considered distinct languages under a macrolanguage code. The macrolanguage code is cr and its Wikipedia already exist. None of its dialects have an existing Wikipedia and I'm not aware of any in the Incubator (although those could easily being created according to policies).
However, the community has mentioned after a discussion (by e-mails) that their preferred course of action is to keep only one Wikipedia for the community with all dialects. Now, they are only seeking advices and support on how to easily index content by dialect.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com a écrit :
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check
first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
-- "Imagina un mundo en el que cada ser humano tiene la posibilidad de acceder a la suma de todo el conocimiento. Ese es nuestro compromiso."
Carlos Manuel Colina Tesorero A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela J-40129321-2 +58-416-9051946
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Several wikis also use templates, eg: https://vls.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patr%C3%B4on:Veranderplat https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Dialekt-oben
2012/9/6 Carlos Colina jewbask@wikimedia.org.ve
How about using categories?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
For the case who concerned me now, codes exist for each dialect and are in fact considered distinct languages under a macrolanguage code. The macrolanguage code is cr and its Wikipedia already exist. None of its dialects have an existing Wikipedia and I'm not aware of any in the Incubator (although those could easily being created according to policies).
However, the community has mentioned after a discussion (by e-mails) that their preferred course of action is to keep only one Wikipedia for the community with all dialects. Now, they are only seeking advices and support on how to easily index content by dialect.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com a écrit :
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check
first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
-- "Imagina un mundo en el que cada ser humano tiene la posibilidad de acceder a la suma de todo el conocimiento. Ese es nuestro compromiso."
Carlos Manuel Colina Tesorero A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela J-40129321-2 +58-416-9051946
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
That would work, but what I'm looking at it's something they can set in their preferences like on Incubator where we can choose our test-wiki. That option could be used to automatically those categories or templates so it's transparent to the contributor. One thing we want to avoid is to have a linguist or a knowledgeable person to have to screen every edits to put the right dialect template or category (as we have to do already to sort all existing articles which are in diverse dialects).
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 10:43, "JP Béland" lebo.beland@gmail.com a écrit :
For the case who concerned me now, codes exist for each dialect and are in fact considered distinct languages under a macrolanguage code. The macrolanguage code is cr and its Wikipedia already exist. None of its dialects have an existing Wikipedia and I'm not aware of any in the Incubator (although those could easily being created according to policies).
However, the community has mentioned after a discussion (by e-mails) that their preferred course of action is to keep only one Wikipedia for the community with all dialects. Now, they are only seeking advices and support on how to easily index content by dialect.
Thanks, JP Le 6 sept. 2012 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com a écrit :
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My contact at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an Innu Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right now) that we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where Innu is called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree Cultural Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes for the "sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias. It's perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on one Wikipedia without having codes.
Thanks, JP
2012/9/6 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
ISO 639-6 codify dialects (at least the major ones). You should check first if the dialect has that code and just if it doesn't have, you should think about creating new code (likely to suggest it as new ISO 639-6 code).
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day,
Do you think there would be a way to implement something where the contributor could select his dialect of a language within his
preferences or
at the time of writing an article so we could make indexation of
articles by
dialect somewhat automatic ?
Thanks, JP
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:54 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My contact at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an Innu Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right now) that we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where Innu is called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree Cultural Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes for the "sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias. It's perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on one Wikipedia without having codes.
If the information on Ethnologue is correct, it suggests implicitly that there is one standard language; or that the differences between the dialects are not big.
But, anyway, no matter of differences, the population is too small to be able to drive two Wikipedia editions. I suggest creating one Innu Wikipedia with possibility to write in all dialects. Or, if possible, to create a kind of conversion engine in the future, so all communities would be able to contribute and read in their own dialect on the same pages.
I agree with you when saying the communities are too small to sustain two editions of Wikipedia, and that's why I even think Innu dialects should remain on the main Cree Wikipedia, hence my question about how effectively index all dialects to make it easy to find them and for contributor of another dialect to use them to translate in its own dialect.
I just remembered that I had created a stub for a main page 8 months ago to try to show how we could sort all dialects on the Cree Wikipedia: http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amqui/Main_page
What do you think?
Thanks, JP
2012/9/6 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:54 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My
contact
at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an Innu Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right now)
that
we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where
Innu is
called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree
Cultural
Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes for
the
"sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias.
It's
perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on one Wikipedia without having codes.
If the information on Ethnologue is correct, it suggests implicitly that there is one standard language; or that the differences between the dialects are not big.
But, anyway, no matter of differences, the population is too small to be able to drive two Wikipedia editions. I suggest creating one Innu Wikipedia with possibility to write in all dialects. Or, if possible, to create a kind of conversion engine in the future, so all communities would be able to contribute and read in their own dialect on the same pages.
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you when saying the communities are too small to sustain two editions of Wikipedia, and that's why I even think Innu dialects should remain on the main Cree Wikipedia, hence my question about how effectively index all dialects to make it easy to find them and for contributor of another dialect to use them to translate in its own dialect.
I just remembered that I had created a stub for a main page 8 months ago to try to show how we could sort all dialects on the Cree Wikipedia: http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amqui/Main_page
What do you think?
Maybe the best idea is to implement so called "Incubator Extension" on cr.wp. Robin is here and he could explain how it works in detail.
In brief, if someone puts the link on French Wikipedia [[moe:2012]], it would lead to the article http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/moe:2012. If someone types "http://moe.wikipedia.org", it would lead to http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/moe:Main_Page. In other words, it could look like the separate Wikipedia, while editors would work on the same project.
Hoi, When people ask for a Wikipedia, there are procedures to get them. When people ask for functionality that affects the considerations applied within those procedures, it is for the language committee to formulate an opinion. When the line between dialects and languages is obfusicated it will be a proper argument using the right vocabulary to convince. The right vocabulary is that it is ISO who decides what is a language and what is not. Anything different is not acceptable. The notion that we can add to ISO-639-6 is a definite no.
When multiple languages want to collaborate in one Wikipedia, the standard answer is no. Particularly when people discuss such wishes are not the native speakers involved it is likely to be a "NO".
This discussion list can discuss and it will typically find people of the language committee interested and inclined to listen to good arguments. However, the problem with exceptions to a rule is that people will consider them as the new rule. This may mean that an exception around Cree may be seen as an argument for applying it as the rule for a different set of circumstances. Thanks, Gerard
On 7 September 2012 00:51, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you when saying the communities are too small to sustain two editions of Wikipedia, and that's why I even think Innu dialects should remain on the main Cree Wikipedia, hence my question about how effectively index all dialects to make it easy to find them and for contributor of another dialect to use them to translate in its own dialect.
I just remembered that I had created a stub for a main page 8 months ago to try to show how we could sort all dialects on the Cree Wikipedia: http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amqui/Main_page
What do you think?
Thanks, JP
2012/9/6 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:54 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My
contact
at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an Innu Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right now)
that
we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where
Innu is
called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree
Cultural
Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes for
the
"sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias.
It's
perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on
one
Wikipedia without having codes.
If the information on Ethnologue is correct, it suggests implicitly that there is one standard language; or that the differences between the dialects are not big.
But, anyway, no matter of differences, the population is too small to be able to drive two Wikipedia editions. I suggest creating one Innu Wikipedia with possibility to write in all dialects. Or, if possible, to create a kind of conversion engine in the future, so all communities would be able to contribute and read in their own dialect on the same pages.
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
When people ask for a Wikipedia, there are procedures to get them. When people ask for functionality that affects the considerations applied within those procedures, it is for the language committee to formulate an opinion. When the line between dialects and languages is obfusicated it will be a proper argument using the right vocabulary to convince. The right vocabulary is that it is ISO who decides what is a language and what is not. Anything different is not acceptable. The notion that we can add to ISO-639-6 is a definite no.
JAC can decide what is a language and what is not for themselves. SIL in the past and JAC today have shown that they are incompetent bodies. They are quite capable to decide what is English, French or Russian language, but not much more than that. They have problems with German language continuum, which is likely the best described in the world; very well described South Slavic language continuum is a nightmare for them; in the case of not so well described Romany languages, Ethnologue classification has no tangents with the classification of local linguists.
When multiple languages want to collaborate in one Wikipedia, the standard answer is no. Particularly when people discuss such wishes are not the native speakers involved it is likely to be a "NO".
Fortunately, nobody asked you for the opinion. Editors of one project are able to do whatever they want, while it's according to some basic rules, which don't include enforcing your opinion.
This discussion list can discuss and it will typically find people of the language committee interested and inclined to listen to good arguments. However, the problem with exceptions to a rule is that people will consider them as the new rule. This may mean that an exception around Cree may be seen as an argument for applying it as the rule for a different set of circumstances.
So what?
Hoi, When you want to close options as possibilities in this way so be it. Thanks, Gerard
On 7 September 2012 12:07, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
When people ask for a Wikipedia, there are procedures to get them. When people ask for functionality that affects the considerations applied
within
those procedures, it is for the language committee to formulate an
opinion.
When the line between dialects and languages is obfusicated it will be a proper argument using the right vocabulary to convince. The right
vocabulary
is that it is ISO who decides what is a language and what is not.
Anything
different is not acceptable. The notion that we can add to ISO-639-6 is a definite no.
JAC can decide what is a language and what is not for themselves. SIL in the past and JAC today have shown that they are incompetent bodies. They are quite capable to decide what is English, French or Russian language, but not much more than that. They have problems with German language continuum, which is likely the best described in the world; very well described South Slavic language continuum is a nightmare for them; in the case of not so well described Romany languages, Ethnologue classification has no tangents with the classification of local linguists.
When multiple languages want to collaborate in one Wikipedia, the
standard
answer is no. Particularly when people discuss such wishes are not the native speakers involved it is likely to be a "NO".
Fortunately, nobody asked you for the opinion. Editors of one project are able to do whatever they want, while it's according to some basic rules, which don't include enforcing your opinion.
This discussion list can discuss and it will typically find people of the language committee interested and inclined to listen to good arguments. However, the problem with exceptions to a rule is that people will
consider
them as the new rule. This may mean that an exception around Cree may be seen as an argument for applying it as the rule for a different set of circumstances.
So what?
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Oh, please don't bring the langcom fights here, too :)
Both of you are right: on the one hand, ISO codes are often more political than linguistically correct. On the other hand, we don't have anything better, except making ad hoc decisions based on scientific articles about languages that most of us don't know. And this simply doesn't scale.
Can we do anything to improve the ISO 639 process?
נשלח מטלפון, שאולי עשה שטויות עם תיקון אוטומטי Sent from a phone, which may have done silly autocorrections בתאריך 7 בספט 2012 12:25, מאת "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When you want to close options as possibilities in this way so be it. Thanks, Gerard
On 7 September 2012 12:07, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
When people ask for a Wikipedia, there are procedures to get them. When people ask for functionality that affects the considerations applied
within
those procedures, it is for the language committee to formulate an
opinion.
When the line between dialects and languages is obfusicated it will be a proper argument using the right vocabulary to convince. The right
vocabulary
is that it is ISO who decides what is a language and what is not.
Anything
different is not acceptable. The notion that we can add to ISO-639-6 is
a
definite no.
JAC can decide what is a language and what is not for themselves. SIL in the past and JAC today have shown that they are incompetent bodies. They are quite capable to decide what is English, French or Russian language, but not much more than that. They have problems with German language continuum, which is likely the best described in the world; very well described South Slavic language continuum is a nightmare for them; in the case of not so well described Romany languages, Ethnologue classification has no tangents with the classification of local linguists.
When multiple languages want to collaborate in one Wikipedia, the
standard
answer is no. Particularly when people discuss such wishes are not the native speakers involved it is likely to be a "NO".
Fortunately, nobody asked you for the opinion. Editors of one project are able to do whatever they want, while it's according to some basic rules, which don't include enforcing your opinion.
This discussion list can discuss and it will typically find people of
the
language committee interested and inclined to listen to good arguments. However, the problem with exceptions to a rule is that people will
consider
them as the new rule. This may mean that an exception around Cree may be seen as an argument for applying it as the rule for a different set of circumstances.
So what?
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
Oh, please don't bring the langcom fights here, too :)
Fights? I don't see any :P
Both of you are right: on the one hand, ISO codes are often more political than linguistically correct. On the other hand, we don't have anything better, except making ad hoc decisions based on scientific articles about languages that most of us don't know. And this simply doesn't scale.
Can we do anything to improve the ISO 639 process?
We can. We can build the new infrastructure, which would include more careful work with language diversity. I see this group and the initiative in that direction. If JAC would be willing to use the benefits of our work, their process would be improved. If not, we'd have our process.
Hi, I just want to point that everything I proposed/asked for advices here are directly from Native speakers and even more from linguists and language coordinators. And no they don't contribute yet to the Wikipedia because most of them are blocked for the exact reasons I mentioned before and that, even if it may seem weird to us, they don't understand Wikipedia and Mediawiki itself. The goal is to make it simple for them so their Wikipedia can become active. I have been asked from a language coordinator to provide Wikipedia training to interested potential contributor, so hopefully we'll begin to see more contributions.
The intent here is not to bend any rules, but we have to understand that every project has their own particularities. Policies are guidelines, their role is to ensure the viability of projects, when they become the inverse, we need to be flexible enough to adapt within certain boundaries. From my military background in a support role, I used to say that we need to be combat enabler not combat blocker, so if the rules and policies become an obstacle to achieve mission succes, we need to adapt.
Thanks, JP Le 7 sept. 2012 01:25, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Hoi, When people ask for a Wikipedia, there are procedures to get them. When people ask for functionality that affects the considerations applied within those procedures, it is for the language committee to formulate an opinion. When the line between dialects and languages is obfusicated it will be a proper argument using the right vocabulary to convince. The right vocabulary is that it is ISO who decides what is a language and what is not. Anything different is not acceptable. The notion that we can add to ISO-639-6 is a definite no.
When multiple languages want to collaborate in one Wikipedia, the standard answer is no. Particularly when people discuss such wishes are not the native speakers involved it is likely to be a "NO".
This discussion list can discuss and it will typically find people of the language committee interested and inclined to listen to good arguments. However, the problem with exceptions to a rule is that people will consider them as the new rule. This may mean that an exception around Cree may be seen as an argument for applying it as the rule for a different set of circumstances. Thanks, Gerard
On 7 September 2012 00:51, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you when saying the communities are too small to sustain two editions of Wikipedia, and that's why I even think Innu dialects should remain on the main Cree Wikipedia, hence my question about how effectively index all dialects to make it easy to find them and for contributor of another dialect to use them to translate in its own dialect.
I just remembered that I had created a stub for a main page 8 months ago to try to show how we could sort all dialects on the Cree Wikipedia: http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amqui/Main_page
What do you think?
Thanks, JP
2012/9/6 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:54 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My
contact
at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an
Innu
Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right
now) that
we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where
Innu is
called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree
Cultural
Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes
for the
"sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias.
It's
perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on
one
Wikipedia without having codes.
If the information on Ethnologue is correct, it suggests implicitly that there is one standard language; or that the differences between the dialects are not big.
But, anyway, no matter of differences, the population is too small to be able to drive two Wikipedia editions. I suggest creating one Innu Wikipedia with possibility to write in all dialects. Or, if possible, to create a kind of conversion engine in the future, so all communities would be able to contribute and read in their own dialect on the same pages.
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Hoi JP,
When I saw your draft main page, that reminded me of the joint wikipedia for Alemannic, Alsacian, Suebian and Swiss German, cf. http://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houptsyte
I tried to find out how they assign a specific dialect to an article but was not successful in determining that (Im a linguist, not an IT expert). Maybe youre already aware of what theyre doing and to what extent its similar or different to what youre trying to do.
Best,
BT
_____
From: JP Béland [mailto:lebo.beland@gmail.com] Sent: 07 September 2012 01:51 To: Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages Subject: Re: [Languages] Extension to indicate dialects
I agree with you when saying the communities are too small to sustain two editions of Wikipedia, and that's why I even think Innu dialects should remain on the main Cree Wikipedia, hence my question about how effectively index all dialects to make it easy to find them and for contributor of another dialect to use them to translate in its own dialect.
I just remembered that I had created a stub for a main page 8 months ago to try to show how we could sort all dialects on the Cree Wikipedia: http://cr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amqui/Main_page
What do you think?
Thanks, JP
2012/9/6 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:54 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Good day Milos (and others if you know about that),
I'd like to investigate that more please if you could assist me. My
contact
at the Cree Cultural Institute (after I told him we could create an Innu Wikipedia separate from the Cree one which has Innu articles right now)
that
we (may) should divide the Innu into dialects as well because of huge phonological differences between West and East. On Ethnologue, where Innu
is
called Montagnais (ISO code moe), they mention Western Montagnais and Eastern Montagnais (exactly as described by the guy from the Cree Cultural Insitute), but they don't mention any "sub-codes" for those. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=moe .
That being said, what would be the advantages of having those codes for
the
"sub-dialects"? I mean, the intent is not to have separate Wikipedias.
It's
perfectly possible to sort the articles according to those dialect on one Wikipedia without having codes.
If the information on Ethnologue is correct, it suggests implicitly that there is one standard language; or that the differences between the dialects are not big.
But, anyway, no matter of differences, the population is too small to be able to drive two Wikipedia editions. I suggest creating one Innu Wikipedia with possibility to write in all dialects. Or, if possible, to create a kind of conversion engine in the future, so all communities would be able to contribute and read in their own dialect on the same pages.
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What they are doing (what I understood) is that 1) they are categorizing by dialect and 2) they indicate with a label the dialect used for the article. A similar thing is being used in the Papiamento Wikipedia, to differentiate between the Aruba and the Curaçao-Bonaire dialects.
Este mensaje ha sido enviado gracias al servicio BlackBerry de Movilnet
-----Original Message----- From: "Oliver Stegen" info@oliverstegen.net Sender: languages-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 16:02:52 To: 'Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages'languages@lists.wikimedia.org Reply-To: info@oliverstegen.net, Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages languages@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Languages] Extension to indicate dialects
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Yes that's exactly what we are looking at. Thanks, I didn't know about that project.
JP Le 7 sept. 2012 09:54, "Carlos Manuel Colina" jewbask@wikimedia.org.ve a écrit :
What they are doing (what I understood) is that 1) they are categorizing by dialect and 2) they indicate with a label the dialect used for the article. A similar thing is being used in the Papiamento Wikipedia, to differentiate between the Aruba and the Curaçao-Bonaire dialects.
Este mensaje ha sido enviado gracias al servicio BlackBerry de Movilnet
-----Original Message----- From: "Oliver Stegen" info@oliverstegen.net Sender: languages-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 16:02:52 To: 'Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages'< languages@lists.wikimedia.org> Reply-To: info@oliverstegen.net, Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages languages@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Languages] Extension to indicate dialects
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We use something similar at the Ladino Wikipedia -3 different "versions" of the home page: http://lad.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Primera_Oja http://lad.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Primera_Hoja http://lad.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9C%D7%94_%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7...
And we also have the categories for the three orthographies -albeit we have been discussing adding a fourth one, including a label:
http://lad.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendigamos
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:55 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
Yes that's exactly what we are looking at. Thanks, I didn't know about that project.
JP Le 7 sept. 2012 09:54, "Carlos Manuel Colina" jewbask@wikimedia.org.ve a écrit :
What they are doing (what I understood) is that 1) they are categorizing
by dialect and 2) they indicate with a label the dialect used for the article. A similar thing is being used in the Papiamento Wikipedia, to differentiate between the Aruba and the Curaçao-Bonaire dialects.
Este mensaje ha sido enviado gracias al servicio BlackBerry de Movilnet
-----Original Message----- From: "Oliver Stegen" info@oliverstegen.net Sender: languages-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 16:02:52 To: 'Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages'< languages@lists.wikimedia.org> Reply-To: info@oliverstegen.net, Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages languages@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Languages] Extension to indicate dialects
Languages mailing list Languages@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/languages
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