*Just to clarify: *The shareout will be during
the Monday meeting.
It seems like everyone is already attending this meeting.
*As a follow up, I will post the mocks and conversation tot his thread
so any folks who couldn't make it can participate.*
Thank You.
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
They are interactive mockups with motion and its
too hard to share them
without seeing them live.
I believe you will join the Monday meeting?
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Oliver Keyes <okeyes(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
> Speaking as one of the several remote employees on the E2 team, I
> would suggest taking that sharing list in reverse order :).
>
>
> On 29 March 2013 23:31, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> I will also share these in the team meeting and then we can discuss
>> the conclusion and I will post a PDF on Mediawiki.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Vibha
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>
>>> I have two prototypes to share that will help solve this problem
>>> that I can share on monday at my desk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Benny Situ
<bsitu(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>
>>>> I did not go through every thread in this conversation, what
>>>> problem is 'clear/go away' trying to solve? Is it because the
notification
>>>> topic is not interesting to the user or is it because it disturbs the
user
>>>> view in the flyout? 'clearing' existing ones doesn't prevent
new ones from
>>>> coming in. Or is it just because we want to provide more UI control to
end
>>>> users?
>>>>
>>>> I receive emails from amazon regularly and I would view them
>>>> occasionally to see what's on sale , I would never check/delete them
>>>> because I know that new emails will push them out of the first page. If
I
>>>> am getting sick of receiving such email I would just unsubscribe. I am
not
>>>> sure about implementing such function, I think it totally depends on
>>>> personal preference ( in such case, majority rules, :) ).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Luke Welling WMF <
>>>> lwelling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I generally like the feature in its current form.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not exactly how I'd have specified it. I think
consistency
>>>>> in UX is vital so if it were just up to me, I would not have
different
>>>>> handling for talk and system notifications. But that's a
relatively minor
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big question I'd ask now is "Is there a realistic chance
that
>>>>> we'll add fine grained control in V1.1?"
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is, then type based disabling is dangerous. It limits
>>>>> what we can turn on later. For example, if somebody has turned off
all page
>>>>> link notifications because they were getting dozens for a single
>>>>> uninteresting page they created, and we later add per page disabling
of
>>>>> that type, we can't reasonably turn it back on for that user.
Undoing their
>>>>> manual preference settings would be obnoxious. We've lost them
from that
>>>>> feature forever even if we improve it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Luke
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan, can you request you to comment on tech feasibility
analysis
>>>>>> for 2 things:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -A simple 'Go away/Remove this notification'
>>>>>> -And a 'Clear All' for visible notifications in the
flyout?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Oliver Keyes <
>>>>>> okeyes(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's an argument for 'they might not find the
feature as
>>>>>>> useful'. Will they be directly inconvenienced by the
feature? Not that I
>>>>>>> can see. But since we're in agreement that, well,
we're not in agreement,
>>>>>>> it's probably worth mooting this conversation until there
comes a time when
>>>>>>> we have more evidence on how things work in practise, or
other people want
>>>>>>> to take up the baton.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27 March 2013 20:23, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right. So I agree we need solutions that will work across
a
>>>>>>>> spectrum of engagement levels.
>>>>>>>> But turning categories off also doesn't work for new
users, *their
>>>>>>>> volume and velocity of notifications* is much smaller
than the
>>>>>>>> power user.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Oliver Keyes <
>>>>>>>> okeyes(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am certainly talking about the power user; my point
is that
>>>>>>>>> we *do* have use cases here :). I strongly agree that
new
>>>>>>>>> users are unlikely to create a volume of edits or
articles in a single go,
>>>>>>>>> but given that our job with EE is to turn them *into*
power
>>>>>>>>> users, and being able to create mechanisms to do this
requires some kind of
>>>>>>>>> community acceptance, it seems illogical to make
product decisions based on
>>>>>>>>> the short-term. I'm happy to wait until we have
*more*evidence, and other people are convinced this might be worth looking into,
>>>>>>>>> but "I think you may be talking about the power
user here" is never a valid
>>>>>>>>> argument for a feature that hits non-newcomers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27 March 2013 20:02, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oliver, I think you may be talking about the
power user here:
>>>>>>>>>> New users are unlikely to create a volume of
edits or
>>>>>>>>>> articles in a single go.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Certain categories *cannot *be switched off:
>>>>>>>>>> -Systme Messages
>>>>>>>>>> -Talk Page messages
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You bring up a very valid case, but I doubt that
the solution
>>>>>>>>>> is turning entire categories off from the
flyout.
>>>>>>>>>> If it is spam for power users, they can turn
things off in
>>>>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Facebook provides a very sophisticated level of
control in
>>>>>>>>>> the flyouts by letting you mute :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Notification from User X (*Not* all talk
messages)
>>>>>>>>>> -Notifications about Event X (*Not* all events)
>>>>>>>>>> -Notifications from X wall Post (Not all your
wall posts,
>>>>>>>>>> just this specific one)
>>>>>>>>>> -Notifications from the status you posted (Not
your entire
>>>>>>>>>> wall)
>>>>>>>>>> -Notifications for a language from a service (Not
even the
>>>>>>>>>> entire app in all cases)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is the level of control we may need for some
categories,
>>>>>>>>>> but it needs more thinking,
>>>>>>>>>> I dont think we are there yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Oliver Keyes
<
>>>>>>>>>> okeyes(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As someone who has spent time directly
observing user
>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour for many years - we have lots and
lots of evidence. For example;
>>>>>>>>>>> are you aware that users semi-automatically
and/or rapidly create articles?
>>>>>>>>>>> Usually translated from other projects. I
sincerely doubt that they will
>>>>>>>>>>> want a notification every time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27 March 2013 19:32, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To clarify:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) The safest thing that allows to build
incrementally for
>>>>>>>>>>>> now is 'Ive read this > Remove
it' which is a really a simple
>>>>>>>>>>>> *'Go Away'*
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 ) In addition to this we could support
a* 'Clear All
>>>>>>>>>>>> Read'* from the flyout so a user
doesn't have to dismiss
>>>>>>>>>>>> one at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This still leaves us with the problem of
cross linking
>>>>>>>>>>>> notification which may be large in volume
> we could make that an
>>>>>>>>>>>> *'Opt In'*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason I think turning off categories
in the flyout is
>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Dismissing entire categories needs
more fine tuning.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users will want to unfollow specific
things > Articles > Discussions etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Switching off categories also
prevents us from
>>>>>>>>>>>> incremental fine tune controls in the
short term.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Other than cross links, so far we
dont have enough
>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence that users will want to
switch entire categories off. We need more
>>>>>>>>>>>> time and back end support to figure
that out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Vibha
Bamba <
>>>>>>>>>>>> vbamba(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I propose:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) The safest thing that allows to
build incrementally for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> now is 'Ive read this >
Remove it'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 ) In addition to this we could
support a clear all new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the flyout so a user doesn't
have to dismiss one at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This still leaves us with the problem
of cross linking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notification which may be large in
volume > we could make that an 'opt in'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dismissing entire categories needs
more fine tuning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other than cross links, so far we
dont have enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence that users will want to
switch entire categories off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users will want to unfollow specific
things > Articles >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discussions etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We need more time and back end
support to figure that out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:17 PM,
Isarra Yos <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> zhorishna(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But having the option there at
all, if its to be removed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later for simplicity, could even
cause problems - how quickly would users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out that they dont want a
kind of message? On the first one, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably wont seem worth
dismissing all of the type - might be interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get more. But once they get
twenty in the next day, then it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably sink in that okay, this
is really annoying. But where did the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> option go? Wasnt there an
option?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If anything it might lead them
away from their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferences because their
preferences are not where they saw the option
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> initially.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2013 13:11, Matthew
Flaschen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/27/2013 03:09 PM,
Isarra Yos wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Im
misunderstanding something, but if someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dismiss several, they
wont want a dialog showing up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every time, but at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same time even if
they dont want to disable all of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the type the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time that doesnt
mean they wont want to do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later. The option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if its going to be there,
needs to be there somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can still disable the
notification category in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Special:Preferences .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may be worthwhile to
keep the main Echo interface
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (not preferences)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simpler if they choose not to
disable the category the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Flaschen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/ee<https://lists.wikimedi…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -— Isarra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/ee<https://lists.wikimedi…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>>>>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EE mailing list
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>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Community Liaison, Product Development
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>