I agree with Henning that we should fight for what we believe in. I
also agree with Dimi in that we must pick our battles, and it's rarely
smart to take an absolutist position where we are likely to lose big. We
do not have the resources to maximally contest every issue.
How could we organize a maximalist campaign like Henning suggests
with a reasonable chance of winning? And how can we combine that with a
contingency plan that has a high likelihood of allowing us to disengage
with minimal losses if it becomes clear that most likely alternatives
involve much larger losses?
Spencer Graves
p.s. If Putin decides to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, it may not end
while either the US or Russia have any nuclear weapons left, and the
northern hemisphere and much of the rest of the world are virtually
uninhabitable. The most recent research by climatologists that I've
seen concluded that just over 60 percent of humanity would starve to
death during the ensuing nuclear winter if they do not die of something
else sooner. I'm more worried about this than I am of banning child
access to literature.
Xia, et al. (2022-08) "Global food insecurity and famine ... due to ...
nuclear war soot injection", Nature Food, vol. 3
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00573-0
On 6/1/23 10:11 AM, Henning Schlottmann wrote:
> Frankly,
>
> I prefer to shut down the whole of all projects including Wikipedia to covering under
the first demands of irresponsible politicians who opperate with fear but can not show
anything to support their emotional claims. This is the most peaceful generation since the
beginning of huminatiy. And the kids have access to everything they are interested in.
>
> Let's fight against it, with tooth and nails. Not cave in.
>
> Henning
>
>
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 01. Juni 2023 um 15:52 Uhr
> Von: "Dimi Dimitrov" <dimi(a)wikimedia.be>
> An: "Publicpolicy Group for Wikimedia"
<publicpolicy(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Betreff: [Publicpolicy] Re: EU Policy Monitoring Report - May 2023
>
> Hi again,
>
> I understand that the discussions around controversial content, especially on
Commons, have never been easy and we have never managed to get to a consensus.Don't
get me wrong, I would also prefer to not change anything. I am not advocating for
content-gating solutions with lawmakers. But I want to have this very difficult
discussion, not avoid it.
>
> The world is changing and age-gating will be a huge legislative topic in the years to
come. I guarantee you that. And if we want to continue hosting things like Category:Anal
sex[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Anal_sex],
Category:Pornographic_videos[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Po…
or even
File:Close_view._Dead_Gaza_girl_day_14_of_Gaza_War_(2008–2009).jpg[https://…,
it will become very hard at some point to convince lawmakers that educational repositories
like Commons should not be obliged to age-gate.
>
> My fear is that if we don't figure out an elegant way to convince people that
graphic content on Commons is not an issue or don't give parents at least some
control, we might get hit with harsh obligations that we don't like.
>
> This is why I am trying to escalate a debate on this. Here, at Wikimania and
elsewhere. We need to figure out some answers, as a movement, so we can advocate for
them.
>
> Cheers,
> Dimi
>
> Le jeu. 1 juin 2023 à 12:59, Henning Schlottmann
<h.schlottmann@gmx.net[mailto:h.schlottmann@gmx.net]> a écrit :
>
> Kids of reading age have free access to all content of the world and decide on their
own what is of interest for them. This is true now for at least one full generation. And
the result? We have the least violence between kids and the most peaceful generation since
humanity exists.
>
> Specific educational content, aimed at certain age brackets does not invalidates my
claim, because this content is produced to raise interest in topics. I speak of intrinsic
motivation to learning and all of us remember how we went far beyond "age
appropriate" content to learn, when we were motivated. I want our content to be
available to everyone, who is actively searching for and reading it.
>
> As soon as I could read, my parents put the family 20-volume Brockhaus encyclopedia
on the lower shelves in the living room. And I was fascinated by the images of the human
body that developed from page to page from the outside of the nude body over a skinned
body with the muscles showing, the inner organs and arterial system to the bare skeleton.
When I had read almost all the children and most of the youth books in our small branch
library I ventured into the non-fiction section and read voraciously through whatever I
wanted that day. The librarians knew me by then of course, and occasionally had to
override the computer for me to borrow books that were marked for a higher age bracket
(the Munich municipal library system has long since abandoned marking books for certain
ages but back then they did).
> Please do not even discuss this with law-makers, the communities will not follow
you.
>
> Henning
>
> Am 01.06.2023 12:33 schrieb Dimi Dimitrov
<dimi@wikimedia.be[mailto:dimi@wikimedia.be]>:
>
> Hi Henning,
>
> Just to put you at ease: I am not making such a proposal currently, but I want to
discuss options at Wikimania and other community events.
>
> I must however correct you on "Educational content is per se suitable for all
ages". This is simply not true. Most educational is written with very specific age
groups in mind. A three year old will learn from a specific category of books (most of
them clearly marked with an age recommendation), while certain other topics (including
sexual education, drugs, violence) are introduced in educational materials targeted at
older kids. I know of no educational system in the world that doesn't apply some sort
of age appropriate structure.
>
> Dimi
>
> Le jeu. 1 juin 2023 à 12:23, Henning Schlottmann
<h.schlottmann@gmx.net[mailto:h.schlottmann@gmx.net]> a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> Am 01.06.2023 10:17 schrieb Dimi Dimitrov
<dimi@wikimedia.be[mailto:dimi@wikimedia.be]>:
>
>
>
> Another general solution I personally like is to move age-verification to the device
or browser. [...] In this scenario the community would need to provide
metadata/categorisation for sensitive content. Not sure it is feasible, but this is a
universal approach that doesn't require the hovering up of user data.
> I don't want to consider this. Educational content is per se suitable for all
ages and should be exempt from any such demand. There is no age for which educational
content is "dangerous".
>
> And Dimi, please do not support any such proposal towards law-makers, because the
communities will not follow you. I promise you, and everyone on this list, that all mayor
projects will not categorize content for "appropriate age". I for one will
prefer to shut down Wikipedia over censoring access to our work.
>
> Henning_______________________________________________
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> --
>
> Dimitar Dimitrov
> Policy Director
> Wikimedia Europe
>
> mobile: +32497720374
>
> Rue Belliard 12 Belliardstraat,
Brusselshttps://wikimedia.brussels[https://wikimedia.brussels]
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>
> --
>
> Dimitar Dimitrov
> Policy Director
> Wikimedia Europe
>
> mobile: +32497720374
>
> Rue Belliard 12 Belliardstraat,
Brusselshttps://wikimedia.brussels[https://wikimedia.brussels]
> Wikimedia Europe ivzw
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