I agree with Henning that we should fight for what we believe in. I also agree with Dimi in that we must pick our battles, and it's rarely smart to take an absolutist position where we are likely to lose big. We do not have the resources to maximally contest every issue.
How could we organize a maximalist campaign like Henning suggests with a reasonable chance of winning? And how can we combine that with a contingency plan that has a high likelihood of allowing us to disengage with minimal losses if it becomes clear that most likely alternatives involve much larger losses?
Spencer Graves
p.s. If Putin decides to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, it may not end while either the US or Russia have any nuclear weapons left, and the northern hemisphere and much of the rest of the world are virtually uninhabitable. The most recent research by climatologists that I've seen concluded that just over 60 percent of humanity would starve to death during the ensuing nuclear winter if they do not die of something else sooner. I'm more worried about this than I am of banning child access to literature.
Xia, et al. (2022-08) "Global food insecurity and famine ... due to ... nuclear war soot injection", Nature Food, vol. 3
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00573-0
On 6/1/23 10:11 AM, Henning Schlottmann wrote:
Frankly,
I prefer to shut down the whole of all projects including Wikipedia to covering under the first demands of irresponsible politicians who opperate with fear but can not show anything to support their emotional claims. This is the most peaceful generation since the beginning of huminatiy. And the kids have access to everything they are interested in.
Let's fight against it, with tooth and nails. Not cave in.
Henning
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 01. Juni 2023 um 15:52 Uhr Von: "Dimi Dimitrov" dimi@wikimedia.be An: "Publicpolicy Group for Wikimedia" publicpolicy@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: [Publicpolicy] Re: EU Policy Monitoring Report - May 2023
Hi again,
I understand that the discussions around controversial content, especially on Commons, have never been easy and we have never managed to get to a consensus.Don't get me wrong, I would also prefer to not change anything. I am not advocating for content-gating solutions with lawmakers. But I want to have this very difficult discussion, not avoid it.
The world is changing and age-gating will be a huge legislative topic in the years to come. I guarantee you that. And if we want to continue hosting things like Category:Anal sex[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Anal_sex], Category:Pornographic_videos[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Pornographic_videos] or even File:Close_view._Dead_Gaza_girl_day_14_of_Gaza_War_(2008–2009).jpg[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Close_view._Dead_Gaza_girl_day_14_of...], it will become very hard at some point to convince lawmakers that educational repositories like Commons should not be obliged to age-gate.
My fear is that if we don't figure out an elegant way to convince people that graphic content on Commons is not an issue or don't give parents at least some control, we might get hit with harsh obligations that we don't like.
This is why I am trying to escalate a debate on this. Here, at Wikimania and elsewhere. We need to figure out some answers, as a movement, so we can advocate for them.
Cheers, Dimi
Le jeu. 1 juin 2023 à 12:59, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann@gmx.net[mailto:h.schlottmann@gmx.net]> a écrit :
Kids of reading age have free access to all content of the world and decide on their own what is of interest for them. This is true now for at least one full generation. And the result? We have the least violence between kids and the most peaceful generation since humanity exists.
Specific educational content, aimed at certain age brackets does not invalidates my claim, because this content is produced to raise interest in topics. I speak of intrinsic motivation to learning and all of us remember how we went far beyond "age appropriate" content to learn, when we were motivated. I want our content to be available to everyone, who is actively searching for and reading it.
As soon as I could read, my parents put the family 20-volume Brockhaus encyclopedia on the lower shelves in the living room. And I was fascinated by the images of the human body that developed from page to page from the outside of the nude body over a skinned body with the muscles showing, the inner organs and arterial system to the bare skeleton. When I had read almost all the children and most of the youth books in our small branch library I ventured into the non-fiction section and read voraciously through whatever I wanted that day. The librarians knew me by then of course, and occasionally had to override the computer for me to borrow books that were marked for a higher age bracket (the Munich municipal library system has long since abandoned marking books for certain ages but back then they did). Please do not even discuss this with law-makers, the communities will not follow you.
Henning
Am 01.06.2023 12:33 schrieb Dimi Dimitrov <dimi@wikimedia.be[mailto:dimi@wikimedia.be]>:
Hi Henning,
Just to put you at ease: I am not making such a proposal currently, but I want to discuss options at Wikimania and other community events.
I must however correct you on "Educational content is per se suitable for all ages". This is simply not true. Most educational is written with very specific age groups in mind. A three year old will learn from a specific category of books (most of them clearly marked with an age recommendation), while certain other topics (including sexual education, drugs, violence) are introduced in educational materials targeted at older kids. I know of no educational system in the world that doesn't apply some sort of age appropriate structure.
Dimi
Le jeu. 1 juin 2023 à 12:23, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann@gmx.net[mailto:h.schlottmann@gmx.net]> a écrit :
Hi,
Am 01.06.2023 10:17 schrieb Dimi Dimitrov <dimi@wikimedia.be[mailto:dimi@wikimedia.be]>:
Another general solution I personally like is to move age-verification to the device or browser. [...] In this scenario the community would need to provide metadata/categorisation for sensitive content. Not sure it is feasible, but this is a universal approach that doesn't require the hovering up of user data. I don't want to consider this. Educational content is per se suitable for all ages and should be exempt from any such demand. There is no age for which educational content is "dangerous".
And Dimi, please do not support any such proposal towards law-makers, because the communities will not follow you. I promise you, and everyone on this list, that all mayor projects will not categorize content for "appropriate age". I for one will prefer to shut down Wikipedia over censoring access to our work.
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Dimitar Dimitrov Policy Director Wikimedia Europe
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Dimitar Dimitrov Policy Director Wikimedia Europe
mobile: +32497720374
Rue Belliard 12 Belliardstraat, Brusselshttps://wikimedia.brussels%5Bhttps://wikimedia.brussels] Wikimedia Europe ivzw _______________________________________________ Publicpolicy mailing list -- publicpolicy@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to publicpolicy-leave@lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Publicpolicy mailing list -- publicpolicy@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to publicpolicy-leave@lists.wikimedia.org